Conflicted: The art of shotokan or the fight!

[FlailingLimbs]

I'm having a bit of a problem, and this being a karate message board, I'd hope to see what you all have to say.

 

I'm feeling conflicted between learning HOW to fight, and the actual practice of shotokan. I feel like I'm not learning anything about actual fighting in shotokan, and there is another side of me that wants to train hard in it as the art. I'm a 3rd kyu and I haven't been training as much as I should (as my final year in high school seems to be getting in the way)

 

Has anyone ever felt like this?

[ninjanurse]

Wax on....Wax off....

 

[SaiFightsMS]

Is your goal to learn how to fight or to learn how to defend yourself?

[hobbitbob]

Are you likely to step into a ring with a professional boxer and win? No.

 

If cornered in a alley, might you be able to survive? Probably.

 

the latter has always seemed far more important!

[G95champ]

Shotokan like most traditional arts does not offer instant feedback. A true Shotokan black belt will hold his or her onw anywhere any place any time against anyone. I did not say win I said hold their own.

 

Kuy ranks on the other hand is just a learing process and lots of the moves don't seem useful and ofter boring.

 

If you want to learn to fight in 2 weeks get in a Muay Thai class. Shotokan is not a quick fix but its a long term answer. Just got to figure out what you are looking for.

[TJS]

A true Shotokan black belt will hold his or her onw anywhere any place any time against anyone. I did not say win I said hold their own.

 

intresting,here some evidence that would lead to the contrary, one of the fighters is a Shotokan black belt btw-

 

http://www.bullshido.us/dl_goto.asp?id=64

 

I think it's a bit outlandish to make a statment like that...Your saying every true shotokan black belt out there would be able to hold his own against Some like Tank abbot? Royce gracie? Rickson gracie? Bob sapp? Tito ortiz?

 

I find that somewhat hard to beliee..im just using them as examples BTW since they are common names.

[TJS]

Is your goal to learn how to fight or to learn how to defend yourself?

 

I think the two go hand in hand...unless you relly on the whole on hit on kill philosophy (which is rarely the cases against a determined attacker) then you will find yourself in a fight.

 

I think That if he is not learning how to fight then it is VERY unlikely he is learning realistic self defense.

[Rich]

Dont be palmed off, Flailing Limbs, by the comments of some that Shotokan as its generally taught will help you in a self preservation situation. Shotokan will only help you practice Shotokan.

 

Now as Ive said before if you start to peel away the elements added by firstly the Okinawans when Karate began to be used in schools and then the Japanese changes to make the art more palatable for the many you will start to see more of how Karate really is used. Trust your feelings you are spot on.

 

Try to find out more about kata bunkai and realism training- PM me if necessary. You could also try checking out some of the Shotokan guys who can really 'look after themselves' like the great Terry O'Neill- he has trained with many realism instructors himself- and can pull off techniques that would be suicidal for most so Ive heard!

 

Best of luck- and let the others put their heads back in the sand;)

 

Rich

[hobbitbob]

Elmar Schmeisser is another person who has "reverse engineered" Shotokan techniques. His books are out of print, but can usually be found on e-bay, or in used bookstores. Harry Cook is another good source.

 

Rich, I hate to disagree with you, but I have used "Shotokan technique" in self defence situations. Not "kihon technique", with long stances, etc.." but good Karate technique.the problem with using any "style" per se is that many dojo don't teach self-defence, just competition techniques. Often because their teachers didn't know any bunkai/oyo. The first generation of JKA instructors was the perfect example. They had received a "block/punch/kick" education,and an emphasis on jiyu kumite. Their efforts to "Japan-ize" Karate led to a less "practical" Karate. The techniqes are still there, one just has to have a competent guide to find them.

 

Not too long ago our Volunteer FD had a seminar on personal protection, and brought in a Krav maga person to teach it. The techniqes she taught were good, basic Karate technique. I rather enjoyed the class! I have always felt that their are no "new techniques," or "ancient secrets," only willingness or unwillingness to think about the form of a technique. Why is it done this way? What am I reacting to? How would I change this for terrain, bulky clothing, etc...?

[Rich]

Hi Hobbitbob

 

I dont think we do disagree really- good karate technique is/can be style-less. Nothing in your post conflicts with my views. As I said, and as you have mentioned with different wording, the Japan-izing lead to karate being less practical and this after the Okinawans were reducing it too. To make it effective again requires rediscovering the 'original' forms including bunkai, power generation and a myriad other details. Then any style of karate can be effective, and they become more similar too. You can either rediscover the better ways by real life experience and study and/or finding bunkai/original karate experts to learn from. Any successful karateka will have done that.

 

Its a bit like how chemistry is simplified for youngsters. Some of what is taught is true but explained simplistically and some models are just plain wrong- you have to wait til A Level/University to find out a closer model to reality- and it keeps developing...

 

Regards

 

rich