To make an "Agreement" or not?

[GreenDragon]

I just finished the trial two week period at a Tang Soo Do dojang. The head instructor teaches every class, takes care to make sure everyone is "getting it" and even though he is retiring from the military to open the dojang to more day classes so he can make a living off of it, he will not offer any other arts. He said he wants to keep the dojang pure, not a buffet of martial arts. Although this is somewhat discouraging because he is also a 2nd degree blackbelt in Gumdo (? a korean sword art) and I would love to learn that too, it is an encouraging sign that he puts the integrity of his primary art before the potential to make more money off of a variety. I have visited and researched many schools in my area and this one is certainly the best. Then last night after my two week trial period, I start talking with him about the price to continue, etc. and he hits me with the contract proposal, arrrgh! After checking out and responding to a recent McDojo thread, I have to wonder...does this make him a McDojang? McDonalds doesn't try to rope you into some long term commitment. So why is a contract seen as such a negative thing that it gets mentioned as being an attribute of a McDojo. Does the comparison to McDonalds matter at this point? No. But I am concerned about the negative image a contract has on this site vs. the positive spin my intructor tried to put on it last night. He maintained that he would never take anyone to court over it and if there are legitamite circumstances he would work with his students to work it out, so that is why he didn't like it when I called it a contract. He called it an agreement, that helps to ensure commitment. He makes the commitment to the student to help them reach whatever goal they set, but he wants the student to make a commitment to the instructor to meet those goals. If the goal is to become a green belt , the "agreement" is that based on what he saw in me in class he commits to me that we can achieve the goal of green belt in one year and I'd pay a $65 per month. Goal of Red belt, 2 years $60 per month, black belt, 3 years $55 per month. Definately some long term income stream marketing going on there. Which for some reason makes me think negatively, "scammer!" etc. On the other hand, I have been extremely impressed with the quality of instruction, every student I have met is very happy and as I have also seen mentioned on this site (not with regards to the ethics of a contract) that this is a business and I should expect some basic marketing concepts to come in to play.

 

Please give me your thoughts on this, I just left a Dojo that had no contract and absolutely no value...

 

GreenDragon

[hobbitbob]

Putting a time stamp on a belt level "i.e.: red-2 yrs, black-3yrs." is not on the level. What if after three years you haven't reached Shodan level? It sounds to me like he is selling belts, not teaching karate.

 

Other things to take into consideration:

 

-What if you or someone in your family becomes ill and you are unable to train. Are you still responsible for paying?

 

-If you are forced to re-locate,are you still responsible for making payments?

 

-WHat if you just plain don't like TSD a year from now? Will he force you to make payments?

 

Run, don't walk away from this guy.

[CheekyMusician]

It certainly doesn't sound good that he's putting so much emphasis on the contract and promising black belt in 3 years etc.

 

Certainly, you believe his instruction is good though, so I can understand your dilemma.

 

Maybe you should try testing the water with him. Maybe tell him that your impressed with his instruction (a bit of flattery never hurt) and that you desperately want to learn the art. Maybe lie a bit and say that you have to move around for work a lot/your parents have to move around a lot and you feel that if would be therefore useless to sign up to a contract. See if he'd be willing to make allowances for you and let you pay weekly. Its worth a try.

[SevenStar]

The idea of contracts isn't a bad thing, initially. The bad part is when you start guaranteeing rank. Having a contract is good business. selling rank is bad MA.

[paolung]

anyone who guarantees rank does not deserve your time, IMO

[blitzcraig]

Thats kinda how my school is. a monthly "plan", year "plan", or 3 year "plan", in which you "should have your "black belt". I dont like how they lure you in sayin, "stay here for 3 years on this "plan" and you should have your black belt. Its all silly.

[monkeygirl]

Contracts are not just a universal bad. I see people on here freaking out about contracts, but if you love your style and go to a reliable school, it's not really a problem.

 

In my state, there are certain laws that require us to use contracts. Like SevenStar said, contracts can be good business practice, and there's nothing evil about that. When contracts and bad training mix, then you have a problem. Too often, contracts are used for money-grubbing purposes alone.

 

If you really loved the training you received in your first 2 weeks, a contract of 6-12 months would be pretty conceivable. A year is usually a good, fair amount of time to judge whether or not you want to keep doing the style. When you start getting into 2 or 3 years, though, that's too much of a commitment. I find it hard to believe someone who's been involved in their style for 20 years would even sign a contract for 3 years. It's impossible to plan that far into the future. What if you have to move? What if you have an injury? What if you lose interest? What if you have a financial crisis and can't pay?

He maintained that he would never take anyone to court over it and if there are legitamite circumstances he would work with his students to work it out

Then why have contracts at all? They are legally binding documents...his word isn't. Whatever the contract says is what is set in stone...anything the instructor says probably won't hold up in court.

 

Check out the details of this "agreement". What circumstances would allow you to opt-out? At my school, if you move a certain distance away from the dojo or have a doctor's note saying you are physically unable to do MA, your contract will be canceled (as long as payments are up-to-date).

 

The basic purpose of a contract is to lock you into a commitment, that way the dojo can have some financial security, and not worry about whether or not they can pay the electricity bill this month. If you can't make a payment one month, nice dojos will put you on a payment plan to extend payments in smaller monthly amounts. If your dojo does this, that would be great.

 

Generally speaking, students can't cancel a contract simply because they've lost interest. Whether or not they actually come to class, they have to continue payments if they are still under contract.

 

Here is my opinion of what you should do:

 

If this "agreement" allows you to opt-out by moving away, getting injured, it's good. If the agreement will let you be on a payment plan if you can't make your payment one month, then that's a bonus. Unlikely, but good. Remember though, it has to be in the documentation. Otherwise, your instructor could back out on a verbal agreement.

He makes the commitment to the student to help them reach whatever goal they set, but he wants the student to make a commitment to the instructor to meet those goals

Try making a six-month goal. It'll be a little more expensive, but if you decide you hate the art 3 montsh from now, it will definitely be cheaper than having a 3-year-contract.

 

If you still love it after six months, I would suggest going a year at a time after that.

 

I agree with everyone else though, that putting a time stamp on belts is veerry fishy. Even though there may be a general timeline that everyone pretty much follows, people still learn at different paces, sometimes take breaks for a little while. There's no way he can guarantee you a belt, other than simply giving it to you.

[monkeygirl]

I now see there is another thread already on this in Instructor Central by GreenDragon. Therefore I'm locking this thread. Please direct all further discussion to http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7424