JohnnyS Posted May 8, 2003 Posted May 8, 2003 "customized for sport" and made more effective, as was shown by the Judo victory over ju-jitsu. BJJ - Black Belt under John Will (Machado)Shootfighting - 3rd Degree Black BeltTKD - Black Belt
Treebranch Posted May 9, 2003 Posted May 9, 2003 That's great TJS Helio surpassed his teacher, that's what every teacher wants. The fact is Helio was taught something Traditional and improved on it. That goes to show that Traditional Styles are the key to improvement, the basis of all modern styles. Some Traditional Styles welcome change, some don't. Too bad for the one's that don't. Not all Modern Styles are good just because their Modern, and the same goes for Traditional. Why does everyone these days think that just because something is new, it's better. Not true in many cases. For example, things in the old days were built to last. Now everything is made with built in obsolescence so you have to buy a new one in a few years. This consumer culture is filtering it's way into every aspect of our lives, we want the new shiny one, not the old tattered one that's obviously going to outlive the new one. The quick fix is what Modern day people want, what's new and popular is better than, what going to last. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
Treebranch Posted May 29, 2003 Posted May 29, 2003 Read this article it's long, but I think you'll find it interesting. https://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/traditionalMA.htm "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
AndrewGreen Posted May 29, 2003 Posted May 29, 2003 Treebranch, that article is good, but not really relevant. The basics of it is that TMA is not for fighting and anyone that tells you it is lieing or doesn't know what they are talking about. He makes some good points, but he doesn't go into the fact that their are methods of learning how to fight. What he is talking about is TMA vs TMA people trying to repackage their stuff as streetfighting. That is the same sort of training methods, but instead of focusing on "self-improvement", focusing on "combat" which is a dead end. It is, those training methods do not teach you how to fight. If you want to learn how to fight, you have to train in fighting, there is no other way. That means sparring, in all ranges with as few rules as you can safely do. hmm... That sounds like MMA to me... Even then its not perfect, nothing is, but its the best we can do. Those "combat ..." schools are the ones that insist their stuff is to deadly for competition and can't be trained against each other without killing people. I think they are the worst off, not getting the benefits of either TMA or MMA, and instead believing they are doing something they are not. His martial arts are not really martial bit is irrelevant to this as well. NO ONE in MMA would ever claim they are doing some ancient warrior art. It's just a name, if you don't like it don't use it. I kind of prefer combat athletics as I think it is a better description, but Martial arts is the standard term for what all of us do. This is a problem with many traditionalists, getting to caught up in names. This is a karate punch, this is a kung fu punch, this is a TKD punch. Who cares? Which one lands the most and hits the hardest, that is the MMA way of thinking. TMA and MMA are two seperate things, they do different things, and they do them differently. It is not just a matter of techniques and training methods, it is a whole different approach to training. Learning to fight means fighting. Not talking about it, not working choreographed routines, not saying "if this was a REAL fight I'd..." but just fighting, and doing so in a safe way without compromising on the nature of the fight. This is "sport" training. It is fun, it is safe, and it has a better chance of working. (Both CAN work, and both CAN fail, but MMA gives better odds) Both provide other benefits as well, and neither should be done if being able to fight in the street is your only goal. Here is another good read for you, but from a MMA perspective instead of a TMA one: http://www.thomasbrown.net/straightblastgym/page.asp?section=sport&parent=Press&session= Andrew Greenhttp://innovativema.ca - All the top martial arts news!
Treebranch Posted May 29, 2003 Posted May 29, 2003 AndrewGreen I'm glad you liked it, but I'm sorry you didn't find it relevant. I read the articles on the link you left, and I have to say it sounds like alot of testosterone pumping through those words. I already explained how we train, I can't vouch for other TMA's but I think the article on TMA's can relate to all MA's. I think if your goal is to compete no doubt you will be a proficient fighter and be able to handle yourself in most street situations. Bottom line is I never said MMA is not effective, but no matter what anyone in MMA tells me I feel I am getting training that is more well rounded. I don't expect anyone to agree with me and frankly I don't care. I feel I am getting what I want out of Budo Taijutsu and if I feel like going to a boxing gym to train in boxing or kickboxing or grappling, I will adapt quickly. I've done it before, I can do it again. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
Tamojin Posted May 30, 2003 Posted May 30, 2003 I completely disagree that traditional arts are not about self defense!! Why is it that MMA artists hold themselves as the future of martial arts and hold all others as form lovers and flash mongers? Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless--like water.
Treebranch Posted May 31, 2003 Posted May 31, 2003 Tamojin I don't think the article is saying that TMA can't be used for self defense, it can. But the writer of the article is trying to tell us, it's much more the just self defense and fighting. It's also about character building and self discipline. Why is it that MMA artists hold themselves as the future of martial arts and hold all others as form lovers and flash mongers? They see the results of what they are studying work in UFC and Pride. They see the results of these great fighters and they assume it will work just as well for them. I say let them think what they want, who cares. We know that TMA's are highly effective and with proper training I believe TMA's have much more to offer. If the MA you are studying suits you, than that should be enough. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
Tamojin Posted May 31, 2003 Posted May 31, 2003 Treebranch - I think you are right!! Occasionally our kwoon goes to TKD and Karate tournaments. I think these show the hollowness of sport fighting. They tells us no sweeps, no locks, grabs, backfists, basically nothing but kicks and punches. We fight there way and still win - and still no respect. Oh well. Even the UFC seems less than real. I don't mind really - if the more secret, advanced techniques of kung fu remain a mystery to all those who can't last so be it. Kung fu is not about getting a black belt in 2 years. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless--like water.
TJS Posted May 31, 2003 Author Posted May 31, 2003 Treebranch - I think you are right!! Occasionally our kwoon goes to TKD and Karate tournaments. I think these show the hollowness of sport fighting. They tells us no sweeps, no locks, grabs, backfists, basically nothing but kicks and punches. We fight there way and still win - and still no respect. Oh well. Even the UFC seems less than real. I don't mind really - if the more secret, advanced techniques of kung fu remain a mystery to all those who can't last so be it. Kung fu is not about getting a black belt in 2 years. Even the UFC seems less than real. I don't mind really - if the more secret, advanced techniques of kung fu remain a mystery to all those who can't last so be it. Dont even get me started witha comment like that...Every Kung Fu fighter who has steped into he UFC has been eaten alive.
Tamojin Posted May 31, 2003 Posted May 31, 2003 Ya - every body fights on mats in an octagon!! Come on man!! Look at the list of things you are not alllowed to do at the UFC!! ten seconds of kicks and punches then 15 minutes of rolling around on the ground trying to tap each other out! Doesn't look like any street fight i have ever seen. If you fight with no rules - kung fu will stand up everytime. I wish MMA would get off their high horses and stop criticizing everyone else. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless--like water.
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