Importance of Tradition

[karate_woman]

How important do you think it is to find a traditional school? The reason I ask is because when I first started I thought it was really important to do things the "right" way. I still do, but after the big switch in our dojo from Japanese to Okinawan, I've had to come to grips with a few realities: there are several highly ranked individuals (with lineage to back them) out there that do things slightly differently, all with reasons as to why their way is the "correct", traditional way!

 

The differences I speak of are usually rather subtle (especially within the same style), not important to the spirit behind the move, but are distressing to someone like me who takes seriously each correction her teacher gives her only to find another "authority" does it differently so we have to change yet again. Obviously the greatest differences were between the Japanese and the Okinawan Goju, but in my Sensei's journey to find a good Okinawan Sensei to be affiliated with we've been through numerous changes, all based on the authority of people who actually trained under Chojun Miyagi Sensei and his senior students.

 

I've come across a site ( http://www.portaskarate.org/shobuhist.html ) that advises Miyagi Sensei actually had his students each specialize in one kata in addition to Sanchin. That explains a lot; while his senior students of course all knew the required kata, their additional focus on certain kata would lead to one student coming away with a slightly different take on the more subtle moves in the kata. It was a great relief to read that, and now I'm more at peace.

[Ghost]

Personally i think this is a difficult one to answer as the original system must have worked in its time.

 

However if the system is to remain "alive" it must change and will no longer be the same as the original.

 

I think its good to move on but not forget.

 

the hard work of those who have gone before us.

 

As for different people showing you different things you should make your own judgement

 

There is no reason to reject anything that someone shows you if you can get it to work for you.

 

Indeed if you can get all the varieties of the same techniwque to work for you then all the better for you as you will be more capable than others.

 

Be careful though and be picky. You dont have to believe anything an instructor tells you will work if you can never make it work for you.

 

That doesnt mean you shouldnt learn it , you should as it will work for others especially if you want to teach one day.

 

Nothing wrong with tradition but its not good unless coupled with progression.

 

In essence "use your common sence".

[karate_woman]

It isn't really the bunkai that they are changing, just stuff like how much your wrist should move in this particular kata....generally they are efforts to either hide the bunkai or emphasize it. We still practice the bunkai the same way.

[Ghost]

Sounds like chinese wispers. Maybe the differences are coming out as differeant instructors interperate things differntly.

 

I have never been big on kata..

 

I guess a kata should not change though.

 

They should always be the same.

 

If your not sure which one too follow its difficult cos you dont know who is right

 

Depends if you care if its right or not. If you cant apply it to real life and cant work out if it is right or not from what you already know it kind of begs the question "why do it at all?"

[ninjanurse]

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING OPINION MAY INFLAME SOME READERS BUT IS IN NO WAY INTENDED TO OFFEND ANY ONE PERSON OR ANY ONE STYLE OR SYSTEM OF MARTIAL ARTS. IT IS MERELY PRESENTED AS FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

 

Each style has it's own traditions and each master has his own traditions...a variation in technique that can be minimal or drastic (by some definitions). I have been giving this subject quite a bit of thought these days as I have recently changed from a more progressive style of TKD to a more traditional style. I agree that some arts should "keep up with the times" and evolve but I think it depends on the focus of the art-take Tai Ji for example: why should it change and evolve, what would be the point?

 

I think that some of the "issues" that people have today with traditional styles have to do with their perceptions of society and the tendancy to want "more bang for the buck".( No intentions to offend anyone here...just an observation and opinion based on my experiences with people at their best and worst.) American society (in general) wants a quick cure for disease, a miracle weight loss pill, faster cars, more MB hard drives, etc. I think the same can apply to martial arts. People are not satisfied with learning the basics(traditionally a Black Belt is just a master of the basics). They want to learn advanced techniques and kicks before they are black belts....and then expect more after that. When they do not get what they want they shop around for something that satisfies them....until they find something better and move on again. For example: If a school charges $xxx for a BB and teaches traditional arts, and the schools next door charges less $xxx but teaches a hybrid full of advanced techniques for colored belts...those people will choose the later and brand the former a "McDojo".

 

Unfortunately, in our capitalistic society, the reality of economics forces some traditional schools to change to satisfy these people and the traditional art becomes lost in the process. Basic techniques are the building blocks of advanced techniques. One must practice a lifetime to be good at the basics...never attaining perfection. What happens to the quality of the art over time?

 

Now, this is not to say that there are not valid progressive systems that are very substantial and credible but people that choose them should not knock martial artists that choose to preserve tradition. And neither should traditionalist's knock those that seek to change and evolve. Small mindedness creates limits and boundaries that can be difficult to overcome.

 

I realize this is a bit off topic but I just couldn't help myself ! Thank's for listening...don't get too mad.

 

 

 

[hobbitbob]

A "traditional" style has associated with it a series of intangibles that are quite important for those of us who subscribe to them, and pooh-poohed by the "not traditional reality fighter." types. The concept of lineage is particularly important and may be associated with Concfucian concepts of family and group loyalty. The practioner of the "traditional' sytem has as his or her primary goal the learning of a system of varying degrees of antiquity often for the sake of practicing a unique cultural artifact. One may contrast this attitude with that of the "eclecticists' who forsake lineage and tradition in search of "what works." Often the "traditional" systems feature slow progress,and little obvious training in "fighting." instead the student is exposed over time to combative applications of basic techniques.

 

A caveat to the use of the term "traditional' is that the Kihon/Kata/Kumite regime most of us are familiar with, with its rows of students, grouped neatly by rank, is actually a relic of 1930s Tojo militarism. It is the result of efforts by the Japanese university Dojo to train large groups of students in a short time. There is an excellent article in Dave Lowry's newest compilation where he discusses the role of the Dojo in the history of Karate. He points out that the Dojo concept was grafted on to Karate by the Japanese in the 1930s. Prior to this Karate was trained in small groups, often in coutyards or in fields or on beaches.

 

In conclusion, the concept of "Traditional Karate" is something of a misnomer. One of my favourite Richard Kim quotes is this: "If someone tells me they are doing 'Traditional Karate-Do,' I ask them just what style of Kung-Fu they are practicing."

[SaiFightsMS]

Good topic.

 

Some of what you are seeing karate_woman is the politics of martial arts. Why there are so many different ryu's or schools and so many different factions within a style.

 

While learning the basics all students within a dojo should be concentrating on learning to do each technique the way it was taught to them to the best of their ability. As a student rises in rank and developes more understanding of how the technique works the develope it into their "own" technique. They begin to assess their strenghts and weaknesses and begin to learn how to mold what they have learned to use them to the best of their ability.

 

Specialty kata might be a good topic for a separate thread.