McDojo? Against people making a living?

[karate_woman]

I could be reading this wrong, but I've seen a few posts that use the term "McDojo" liberally, seemingly slamming anyone who is making a living from teaching karate.

 

I certainly don't approve of watered down martial arts, or martial arts promotions based on money alone, but the fact a person pays $ for their gradings doesn't demean the rank to me; if they didn't have to actually work for the belt itself it would bug me. We pay over $200 for our black belt gradings. Now, at $55 per month, my Sensei doesn't have huge fees, and the black belt grading fee didn't even go to him (it went to his Sensei, who hosted the grading). His sole source of income is the dojo and I know he isn't getting rich off this, and if he were, well good for him.

 

Here are the other circumstances involved in gradings at my club:we have minimum time frames that we must be at each rank (3 years is the absolute minimum time we have to train to be a shodan), and we stay at brown belt for 1 year before we are eligible for black, training a certain number of hours, plus we have to teach a certain number of hours too (documented). Black belt gradings are only held twice a year, so we are often at brown longer than a year. We are not given our belts right away after our grading, nor do we know if we have even passed for a couple of months. There have even been "probationary" passes where the certificate was withheld (that happened to me with my kobudo). There is also a 1000 word written essay on "what karate means to me", that is reviewed, probably more for character reasons than anything else.

 

Now, when people start slamming dojos that charge people significant amounts for gradings, or for monthly fees, that makes me wonder...would they think "I" belong to a McDojo? I worked my butt off for my black belt, am very familiar with both my Sensei, and O'Sensei's qualifications and lineage, but if they could be deemed a "McDojo" simply because they charge a couple hundred for a black belt grading than I'm at a loss.

 

I found an interesting article that included the subject of "fees" in it http://www.budodanmark.dk/NY/Artikler/what-dojo.htm. It seems that even the traditional teachers were paid in some form...rice.

 

I know people's opinions really don't matter in the end, but I get a feeling that people are looking down on owners that are trying to make a living at karate, and I don't think that is a good way to look at things. Am I reading too much into the McDojo statements people are making? I think the original intent was to look down on the McDojo because they weren't holding their students to any real standards other than the mighty dollar, but some of the comments make me wonder.

[Kensai]

I dont think its anything to do with just Karate. Most martial systems have been mcdojoised.

 

Personally I think its any teacher thats excessively charges students with contracts, or ties them down with them.

 

A teacher that claims false lineage and more importantly does not have the level of qualification that they say they have.

 

That great systems from thin air and claim to be grandmasters.

 

I am sure there are other points to, but I cant think of any.

 

I would love to be able to make my living from Martial arts. But doing one of the above is just not acceptable, there should be some World Wide MA regulation body, but these mcdojo's not only tarnish genuine practioners but take something away from the style itself to.

[karate_woman]

I am actually aware of an amazing Sensei (and no, not my own) that does a couple of those things you list: he charges the highest rates in town (though I wouldn't necessarily say the fees are unreasonable at 82.50 per month as he has a nice dojo and the money is needed to pay for the rent on the large facility and all the equipment he has bought for training), makes students sign a one year contract (membership), and has created a style, which therefore gives him a ran of 10th Dan by default of being a Soke (it was granted to him by the World Sokeship Council, However).

 

HOWEVER, I would NEVER call his dojo a McDojo. Both he and his students are well respected world wide, he's in several Halls of Fame. He also happens to have no less than 5 separate Dan rankings, and lists his lineage, which is easily verified.

[karatekid1975]

What I call a McDojo has nothing to do with test fees. I paid them when I did TSD. But when the owner/instructor charges more than what is needed for up-keep of the dojo, and to make a living, that means the instructor is in it for the money, not the art.

 

For example, one instructor I had charges $100 (just raised it to $120). The dojo is small, so it's not like he has to pay BIG rent for it. He bought a $100,000 dollar house and BMW, and a racket ball club. He teaches a watered down (to me) version of TKD. Tell me he isn't in it for the buck.

 

My instructor now has a much bigger dojo, but he only charges $75 a month. He teaches a h@ll of a lot more than the previous instructor, and definitely isn't in it for the money, eventhough it is his only source of income. He lives in an apartment, and drives your average car. He cares about TKD, not the green stuff.

 

There is a big difference there.

[karate_woman]

Yeah, mine is making a living, but certainly not living large. I really don't see him ever getting rich off it, nor do I think he expects to.

 

There is one club that moved into town that I'd potentially call a McDojo; they advertise getting black belts in 2 years and even have a daycare programme that you bring your kids there instead of to a daycare establishment. For me it is the black belt in 2 years that makes me question the skills they are teaching. I have no idea what they charge, and don't plan on finding out

[aes]

I agree with the general reponse here. A dojo charging for belt tests etc does not make it a McDojo. It has more to do with quick stamping out of poorly trained MAs IMO.

 

MA seems to be at an all time popularity level these days. Some people will try to take advantage of this and overcharge without providing the true value of MA.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[fireka]

if i may, id like to get alittle off subject to adress something someone said here. a world regulating body for the martial arts. this would be a mistake. it sounds good at first, but hey, so does communism. the thing is if theres one body thats saying theres only one way to do things and thats not true espicially in the martial arts. if it were, than new arts could never be created and i think they can and hope they will. The fact is, even if it starts off a good, fair and just body, it will avengially grow curropt, as all governing bodies do. with the world of martial arts split in regions and small providences as it is now there is better opritunity and adversity of training, not to mention, with that formula you forget youd be leaving all those who have alternate forms of training besides schools behind. i am an open advocate for such training methods and i can tell you thats not fair. its so unfair i hate thinking about it, it makes me passionately angry. (not against you, just the idea, because at first glimpse it seems like a great idea) yes, the risk of mcdojos exist, but with one body youll just go down the path of eventually having nothing but mcdojos. we wouldnt want a one world govenment telling us what to do would we ? that power would certainly be abused. in the martial arts world, this is no diffrent.

[karatekid1975]

Yeah, mine is making a living, but certainly not living large. I really don't see him ever getting rich off it, nor do I think he expects to.

 

There is one club that moved into town that I'd potentially call a McDojo; they advertise getting black belts in 2 years and even have a daycare programme that you bring your kids there instead of to a daycare establishment. For me it is the black belt in 2 years that makes me question the skills they are teaching. I have no idea what they charge, and don't plan on finding out

 

I agree. A black belt in two years is definitely a Mcdojo. My last instructor offered a 2nd dan in three years .... What ?!?!?!!?!?!? No way. I have a blue belt (I've been training almost three years) now, and I don't plan on testing for my brown (3rd gup) for a while (it'll be 10 months at this rank before I do). This school teaches a lot more than he ever did. Then again, I'm not in it for rank. I want the benifits (self defense, not sport) of MA to the fullest. My blue belt is looking kinda white now, but I don't care. I'm learning what I need to learn for even MY rank in this art.

[John G]

I agree. A black belt in two years is definitely a Mcdojo.

 

One has to be careful with this statement. In ITF Taekwon-do there are three programs a beginner can follow to obtain a first Degree/Dan black belt these are:

 

An 18 month course: an hour and a half per day, six days per week for a total of 702 hours.

 

A 30 month course: an hour and a half per day, three days per week for a total of 585 hours.

 

A 12 month course: four hours per day, six days per week for a total of 1248 hours.

 

Note: these are unique hours; a student can’t for instance turn up and learn the same lesson three times a day and claim for three training sessions, sure, the student will be proficient at the lesson taught however it only counts for one session.

 

The standard model is based around the 30 month / 585 hour course, which is to say if you only train twice a week an hour and a half per day it will take you around 48 months to grade to black belt.

 

There are exceptions to the case, especially if a person comes from another martial art discipline, or a person trains a lot in their own time or if a person is particularly gifted physically and or mentally. In these circumstances time frames may be lowered.

 

Ultimately, these time frames don’t detract from the fact that a student has to learn and demonstrate the physical, mental and moral lessons taught before a black belt is granted.

 

BTW: It took me 32 months to be granted my first degree/dan.

 

Respectfully,

 

…

[Withers M.A.A.]

I think it is ok to make a living with a karate school. But if your only focus is making money that is where the problem lies.