Whats the difference between BJJ and JJ

[TJS]

A martial art which is best for me, might not be best for you!

 

My belief is that the techniques needed to subdue a trained opponent in a NHB match are not necessarily the ones that would be used to defend oneself if attacked on the street

 

There is some truth to that but If it works against a trained fighter then it's going to work against an untrained person. and who says they are untrained..Thats something i would not assume in a fight...Maybe they wrestled in college or maybe they are a golden gloves boxer...something like that isint too uncommon.

[goshinman]

just out of curiosity why do you think TJJ hasant had 1% of the succes BJJ has in NHB fighting?

 

Ummm... Because no TJJ student has ever entered it maybe?

 

I take it that you study/like BJJ right? Ok then let's forget about what Royce Gracie did in UFC 1,2,3. What can YOU do? Have YOU ever beat a TJJ student. I ask you this because you seem to like to judge all styles by their success or lack-there-of in NHB competition when the reality of it is that was Royce Gracie, someone who has trained everyday for most of his life in BJJ. Don't ride on the coat tails of Royces victories, what can YOU do? What if you freefight with a traditional jujutsuka and get beat, does that mean that it is better then BJJ? Does it mean the BJJ is inferior to TJJ because YOU lost or does it just mean that that one particular guy was just better than you?

 

Lets say for example a Karate student who is a red belt knocks out a BJJ red belt , does it mean the karate is better then bjj now?

[goshinman]

And another thing, how do you measure success in NHB/UFC? In the old days you fought two or three matches before the final round. Well is it or is it not success if you win 2/3 matches? If I submit one guy in the first match, and then choke a guy out in the second but lose in the third match does that mean my style doesn't work? What does it mean?

[goshinman]

I think that I can add more light on this subject, having asked a LOT of bjj teachers the same thing. BJJ is like the old-school judo, as it is/was practiced at the kosen schools. If you notice, everything that the Brazilians do has a japanese name. Kimura/Ude-garami, triangulo/sankaku jime. omoplata/ hiza gatame etc. When Judo was tainted, and became more focused on the Olympic path, Kano was upset. HE was once quoted as saying" This is NOT the judo that I created" The difference between the old school judo/bjj is the TRANSITIONS. They are the same holds and stuff, but the schools that focused equally on tachiwaza have a greater over all skill, more balanced between standing moves, and ground ones. BJJ was once strictly for self-defense. But for the non-fighting segment of society, sport bjj was created. That is where some refinements in the guard have come about. If you read some old judo books, Best Judo, Judo in action/ grappling techniques, you will see the exact same thing that we call bjj

 

You are the only one who displayed some good knowledge of this subject. I actually was arguing with a friend about the very same point about the relationship between BJJ and Judo but he would not hear of it until I whipped out JUDO in action and showed him all of the moves he thought were exclusive to BJJ. I loved it when his face dropped to the floor!!

[TJS]

Ok then let's forget about what Royce Gracie did in UFC 1,2,3

 

Im sure alot of people would like to do that..that way they could live in a world of ignorance and not see obvious weekneeses pointed out by a little brazilian guy...unfortunatly some people still do.

What can YOU do? Have YOU ever beat a TJJ student

 

Did I claim too?

I ask you this because you seem to like to judge all styles by their success or lack-there-of in NHB competition

 

No, but I think The UFC is one of the best judges there has been for what types of techniques work in a real fight.

Lets say for example a Karate student who is a red belt knocks out a BJJ red belt , does it mean the karate is better then bjj now?

 

there are no red belts in BJJ

 

I dont have to prove anything for BJJ to be succesful...look at it's track record..im sure you would like to ignore that also.

[LOILOI44]

Nothing against BJJ, but let's face it the Gracies have not beaten evey TJJ and Judo player out there. The Gracies have an excellent track record, but till any of them face an opponent the likes of Yasuhiro Yamashita (207 consecutive victories, 16 losses lifetime) I will not accept BJJ as the "Ultimate" art. It does have it's merits, but it's not the revolution people think. The techniques in BJJ have been around for thousands of years, just called different names. The wheel has not been reinvented, just packaged differently. I have asked before for somebody to show me a technique in BJJ that is not in TJJ or Judo. Nobody has supplied any info to support arguments like "Helio made BJJ is more scientific than TJJ because of his small size", "TJJ chokes require more strength than BJJ chokes." Please somebody give me factual evidence that backs up some of these claims.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Traditional or Japanese Jujutsu was the first Japanese martial art. It was the martial art of the samurai. All other Japanese martial arts (aikido, judo, karate,) are descended from Jujutsu. It encompases all aspects of martial arts (kicking, punching, throws, chokes, joint locks, and ground fighting) At higher levels there is usually some sort of weapon training. I hope this answers the question.

 

That is a bit of a fallacy. Yes, samurai did practice jujitsu, but it was more to do with a way for samurai to fight with little or no weapons, in case they were damaged or lost in a fight. They would most often always practice it with weapons though because they would have them on the battlefield, even if it was nothing but a short sword or dagger. The huge emphasis was on taking down the opponent or disabling them enough to stab them and this method was used because they often wore armor. It is hard to punch through armor, or so I'm told...Plus, it would have to rely on joint manipulation and weight shifting rather than pressure points for the same reason. Later, as with most all traditional Japanese fighting arts, its focus shifted more towards tournament training or self-improvement.

 

Also, karate came from Okinawa and was introduced to Japan in the early 1900s, not from jujitsu. I don't know about aikido that well, so it is possible it came from jujitsu. However, the other martial arts, like kyuujutsu (archery), kenjutsu (swordsmanship), bajutsu (horseriding) etc. all came from the samurai need to use them on the battlefield, not some simplistic spreading from jujitsu. Rather, they were all skills (jujitsu included) that were included in the rather extensive regimen that a true "clasical" samurai would undergo to become the well-rounded classical Japanese warrior.

[LOILOI44]

Actually I was just trying to supply a simple answer to the original question. I understand there is more to my original post. In the 17th to the 19th centuries there were almost 200 different styles of Ju Jutsu in Japan. Each one specialized in different aspects of combat. Styles like Kyushin-ryu speaclizied in striking with hands and feet to vital areas of an opponents body. Takenouchi-ryu (1532) taught holds and pressure points. Samurai armor is nothing like the armor used in Europe around the same periods. Samurai armor was light weight and flexible. It was not made of solid peices of metal. It was usually small pieces bound by fabric and also made of bamboo. Yes, karate was formally introduced from Okinawa in the early 20th century, but Okinawa was not occupied by Japan until the year 1888. That does not mean that techniques of karate were not practiced in traditional JJ.

[goshinman]

Ok then let's forget about what Royce Gracie did in UFC 1,2,3

 

Im sure alot of people would like to do that..that way they could live in a world of ignorance and not see obvious weekneeses pointed out by a little brazilian guy...unfortunatly some people still do.

What can YOU do? Have YOU ever beat a TJJ student

 

Did I claim too?

I ask you this because you seem to like to judge all styles by their success or lack-there-of in NHB competition

 

No, but I think The UFC is one of the best judges there has been for what types of techniques work in a real fight.

Lets say for example a Karate student who is a red belt knocks out a BJJ red belt , does it mean the karate is better then bjj now?

 

there are no red belts in BJJ

 

I dont have to prove anything for BJJ to be succesful...look at it's track record..im sure you would like to ignore that also.

 

First off I didn't say BJJ wasn't successful, I was mearly saying that it is a fallacy to presume that because TJJ isn't in UFC means that it isn't as effective. A TJJ player knows the same submissions as a BJJ player so I think that it is safe to say it would have had some success in the early ufc's. Now do you care to actually answer my questions regarding what would be considered success in the UFC 1,2,3? I would suggest you find a TJJ dojo and go and participate... I'm sure they will be happy to show you the effectiveness of JJ.

 

P.S. I forgot to make the distinction between TJJ often called nihon jujutsu and modern jujutsu offten called Goshin or Gendai jujutsu. Nihon is TJJ and modern or Goshin is any that came after 1897 or more specifically WWll. Both use similar terminalogy but goshin focuses on modern applications where as nihon focuses on the old school stuff ( swords, wrist grabbing, etc)

[Shorin Ryuu]

That does not mean that techniques of karate were not practiced in traditional JJ.

 

Sorry, I misunderstood your earlier post. I agree, karate techniques were present in traditional JJ.