Wing Chun punch would break knuckles?

[Treebranch]

I think it's pretty safe to say that most Martial Arts if taught and learned properly, the practitioner would find, after careful observation, that there are huge similarities in the stances and movements from Art to Art. The human structure is virtually identical from person to person, therefore the way we walk, run, jump, strike all derive from the human structure. If you move with the whole body and strike with the body, you no doubt will be more effective and efficient.

 

Look your a right about one thing, I didn't take into consideration GRAPPLING when making my argument. I was referring Martial Arts from a standing position, so if we exclude grappling from our discussion, you will find huge similarities and be able to adapt to any weapon.

 

I study Budo Taijutsu and we are taught weapons and hand to hand simultaneously. It is the first Art I have studied that made this point very clear. The hand strikes and the weapon is one in the same.

 

Also who is teaching you how to use these European Weapons? Do you have any reference for this stuff, and where can I get some tapes. I am very interested to see how effective these practioner use these weapons. A lot of the European Martial Arts fell out use with the invention of the gun, and a True European Martial Artist is a very rare thing.

 

Sorry to everyone on this thread if it sounds like we are bickering, I am just a little passionate about MA and so is my e-friend JerryLove. I have no hard feeling toward anyone's opinion, but I can be a smartaleck once in a while.

[JerryLove]

My arts built around the concept of a short blade... the unarmed movements become the armed movements with pretty much taht change.... That's one reason my body mechanics are different from (say) TKD.

 

Can I find similarities between two given activities? Sure can. Are there universals? Not really ones that aren't painfully basic.

 

In regards to european weapons... You will find fincing is still a popular sport, and they tend to teach foil, epeee, and rapier. The qhip is also a common weapon you can find books on or occassionally instructors (either amony coyboys or the occassional (eh-hem) recreational users.

 

For more classic styles, I'd recommend orginaztions like thehaca.com... They have a discussion board with many links and reasources on renesance-period weaponry.

 

I learned the epee from my uncle and from the fencing club at teh Y in Ft.Myers. I learned most other weapons from my mentor in the SCA and many in his family.

 

And yes, outside of fencing, the Western MA groups are putting a lot of effor into finding out how things were done.. much has been "reinvented" because of a limit of information.

[Treebranch]

Well I think it's really cool if a Legitimate European Arts Schools start popping up all over the world, and that european martial arts is rediscovered. I myself would be interested in it, I did some searches on the net and found some books I want to check out. There were old illustrations of 2 guys fighting with Claymores and I have to say their stances, the way they hold the weapon, and where they were striking looks very logical and very similar to what I am studying. Thanks, for the debate.

[Treebranch]

Hey tommarker you can't think of a way to intercept a whip, I guess you study a limited Martial Art, oh well. LOL!!!!!!

[niel0092]

This thread is vastly diffent from the way it began but I'll make a comment or two as well...

 

I'm in agrement with Jerry here. The level at which the movements are the same is very basic. The differences are what make the style/technique. A foil is vastly different from the way one would effectively use a broad sword. To use the foil as a broad sword is to invite getting cut to peices! Stick 'em with the pointy end like it was intended, it works better that way LOL!

 

I also did a bit of SCA back before I started TKD. Mainly I fought with a single "broadsword" and heater (ie style of shield). Broadsword is in quotes there because it was the typical rattan sword and metal hand guard one sees in the SCA and not a real/live or metal practice blade. Man, was it fun though. There is nothing like the sound of slamming that blade into someones helm or the ringing in your ears whem someone does it to you. The armor is very heavy though and takes a bit of getting used to and there where times when you just didn't think you could lift that sheild up to save your life.

 

Lets see: sheild about 5-10 lbs of wood and metal rim, helm 16 gauge steel about 10 lbs; breast and back plate, spalders, vambraces, gorge', leg protection... 30-40 lbs if plastic (SCA uses heat moldable plastic sometimes, cheaper and lighter) or around 70 lbs for steel (REALLY pricey!). 3-4 lbs for a sword (real ones ranged from 2-7 lbs if they were meant to be used, the idea of a 20lb sword is wrong. Armming swords meant for display or ceremonial guards were that heavy but not meant to be used). Add that to the weight of a set of greaves and padding and you now just about weigh as much as a tank LOL!

[Treebranch]

A wheel is round, it rolls. Some made of metal, some of rock, some of wood, some of plastic, it is still a wheel. The form in all MA's it's core is the same, because Martial Arts at it's core comes from the human structure and your balance points are the same place for everyone, you guys are talking about cosmetics. The principles are the same, I never said the styles are the same. In Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu we are trained to use our Taijutsu in such a way that we can pick up any weapon and use it. In the battle field you may find a weapon that differs from yours that you may need in a hurry. You should be able to use it, we train in such a way that the principles are the same for any weapon, adjustment in distancing and timing, but changing the principles for every weapon, silly, not practical for combat. iIf the principles differ so much so that you are lost with each weapon you pick up and can't figure out how to use it effectively, you are being misled in you studies. I hope this makes sense, if it doesn't I encourage you to research some of what Hatsumi Sensei says about this subject, which can be found on the Bujinkan website, he was Knighted in Germany and has studied European Weapons as well as Japanese ones.

[JerryLove]

So you think that if I haded a firearm to a 10th century samurai he would instincively know how to use it? How good are you with a clawymore? How about a three-piece staff? How about an M-60?

 

I am not a wheel, I am a person; and while all wheels may roll, a unicycle rides differnt than a car.

[Treebranch]

Sorry for using the analogy of the wheel, I'm just trying to make a point. The wheel has it's physical characteristics and structure that is unique to it as will as it's physical applications and we as humans have our characteristics and structure unique to our species. You know I don't mean you or I are a wheel, right?

 

The firearm example is really not what we were originally discussing. Yes, a firearm is weapon, but not one used for striking, slashing, or weilding, unless you feel it can be used that way, I don't think it's the best use for it, do you? I can use a Claymore effectively and a three-peice staff, and an Axe, Katana, Nodachi, Yari, Chain and Sickle, I never fired an M-60, but I'd like to. I think if you look closely enough you can see the similarities between the car and the unicycle, bicycle, tricycle and every wheeled contraption, again your talking cosmetics and I'm talking physics.

 

For the sake of this debate let's not bring firearms into this, although eventually in my studies we will cover firearms and other modern weaponary, only weapons accessable to the public of course.

[martialartist1]

"My question is that in WC they punch with the bottom three knucles, but wouldn't you break some if you punched someone or something hard?

 

just curious. do they condition them or something to make them harder?"

 

Wing Chun is the one of the greatest hand fighting systems ever that scientifically works.

 

yes wing chun practitioners punch with the last three knuckles. The knuckles would'nt break because they condition them, meaning they get used to hitting the wooden dummy (hard wood dummy for wing chun training). If they punch hard wood and punch the skin surface covering the bone, then it wouldn't hurt them because the hard wood is much harder than skin/bone. They perform hand routines and patterns to circulation chi enery flow. alternatively they can punch wall targets and punchbags to toughen their hands even more. When they punch with the fist it is explosive power and use of the muscles from foot through leg throught hip, through shoulder to fist. This punch is the turning punch.

 

The only way one might break their knuckles is when punching is when they haven't trained properly.

[JerryLove]

I can use a Claymore effectively and a three-peice staff, and an Axe, Katana, Nodachi, Yari, Chain and Sickle, I never fired an M-60, but I'd like to. I think if you look closely enough you can see the similarities between the car and the unicycle, bicycle, tricycle and every wheeled contraption, again your talking cosmetics and I'm talking physics.

 

I disagree, I think you are looking so detailed (wheels turn, muscles contract) as to make the comparison uninformative. A claymore (or staff) isn't even wielded the same in different modes (half vs quarter for example).