Which weapons best?

[GhOsCeLL]

Learn how to use every kind of weapon first, then decide which one is your favorite and master it!

 

I would suggest Nanchauka, Bo(Staff), and Sword.

[JerryLove]

About jamming the bo. I can think of several ways to stop an opponent who is standing there with a bo diagonally across his torso. It won't do much to demonstrate through words, though. As anyone can talk their way through a situation. But, for arguments sake. Moving close to the opponent will probably exact a strike of some kind. Let's just say a blow towards the head. I don't mind getting hit in the forearm, while I'm moving his point of power is moving further behind me as I close the distance.

i've seen less of a shot... done with rattan rather than hard wood, break an arm that had been put in armor.

 

you don't mind loosing your arm?

while I'm moving his point of power is moving further behind me as I close the distance. The closer to his hand the bo strikes my forearm the less power it has to do damage(compared to the end of the bo striking my arm, much more powerful as that is where the leverage lends the force).

I don't think you understand how power is generated in the hold I am discussing. Using a great sword in the SCA (very similar use of power and distance), *the* common tactic for someone with a shorter weapon (or sword and shield) was to try to get in and hit (and if they have a shield, pretty much always jam).

 

While the person with the shiled has an advantage if he gets in close (and by close, I mean pressing agaasint you close), it's still quite possible (and if you are decent, common) to generate a gread deal of power, even in unusual directions, at no range what-so-ever.

While I take a hit to my forearm, I can either strike to the face, neck, groin, torso, knees and then take hold of the bo forcing a jam at the same time pushing my opponent further backwards, disrupting rhythm.

OK, at this point I'm simply convinced you have never seen anything resembling what I am talking about, and that you are not even really trying to. the "rate-of-fire" on the weapon is extremely high, and your knee is easier to reach with the other end of the stick than mine is with yours.

 

Since the weapon can be employed... with power... when we are bodily pressed against one-another, your claim that it's easily jammed is a false one.

 

This is not, and was not, a discussion of "what can I do to take out the guy with the staff (same to you andrew, it was not about a take down). This was a specific claim that the staff is easy to jam... it is not, it is very hard to jam... at least if they are using it at all well.

[Martial_Artist]

I have allowed a nara (hard philippine wood) nunchaku to be swung at my forearm at full power. My bone didn't break. I got a severe bruise, but no bone breakage. I would tend to think that a nunchaku swung at a stationary target at full strength would hit with more force than a bo being swung at a moving target closing the distance and reducing the power rate.

 

Just for arguments sake. I have jammed a bo-staff by closing the distance and taking a hit to my forearm on the area of the bo closest to the wielder's hand. Regardless of which angle the attacks comes from, low or high, when swung in that manner the closer I am to the pivot point of the attack the less the power of the attack. (A bo staff is a leverage weapon. When swung the power is a torque result. Torquing your hands to turn the bo to hit an opponent. The power of the attack is not at the pivot point. It increases the further down the staff you go. Thus, near the tip is where the most amount of energy is being transfered. Not near the pivot point.) And when hit near the pivot point of the weapon the damage done is not much. IF I do get that close to the weapon then the bo-wielder has to work to regain control of the distance or he's lost.

 

The amount of power generate at no-range is the result of a push and no longer a strike. When pressing the opponent and the distance to the pivot points is closed, if you are struck it will be beyond the focal point of power on the weapon and more of a push against you. In such a circumstance being pushed by a stick is not as effective as being hit by one. Again, just for arguments sake I have done this many times, without pads, when teaching.

 

In case you don't believe me about the bo-staff being a leverage weapon you should visit a website on physics and study how power and force relate to long thin objects being used to strike an opponent. I would include a diagram but that would be presumptuous.

 

And since the weapon has been reduced to a push force at close range, especially when pressing against the opponent, my claim that it can be easily jammed is true.

 

Now, just to clarify a misconception I believe you possess, in the hands of an expert the bo-staff becomes a lethal weapon. However, it is a weapon whose strengths lie in distance control. If the wielder can control the distance the wielder can control the fight. If not, the wielder could very possibly lose the fight.

 

It is not an absolute that the bo can be jammed every single time in close distance. It is a high possibility.

 

I wrote what I wrote to demonstrate that it is just as easy for someone to "demonstrate" the infallability of a technique through words as it is to disprove the very same technique. You claimed that you could easily demonstrate how you could defeat attempts to jam you holding a bo. I merely stated in the same words that I could easily demonstrate conversely through words.

 

And, where does this take us? Most likely nowhere. However, I find it prudent to ensure that every angle is discussed so as to prevent misinformation spread among the less-experienced.

 

To universally claim the bo is a weapon that cannot be jammed easily is not true. It can be when approached properly. Conversely, when wielded properly it becomes more difficult. But, then again, you reached that conclusion at the end of your last post. "...at least if they are using it at all well."

 

MA.

 

Ps.

 

I have participated in the SCA many years ago as a guest of an old friend of mine. I understand the examples you are using, but many of the fighters in the SCA, IMHO, do not use the weapons or counter against them as effectively as they could. Many of the fighters I met just went bonkers on each other, and most of them knew not better how to counter. As simply as a haymaker punch can devastate someone who doesn't know better, so can a weapon in the SCA devastate a target who doesn't know better. Half the people I saw get creamed just simply didn't know any better.

 

MA.

[JerryLove]

Just for arguments sake. I have jammed a bo-staff by closing the distance and taking a hit to my forearm on the area of the bo closest to the wielder's hand.

Which hand? Grab outside the top hand and you should get hit with the bottom of the weapon... grab ouside the bottom and you get hit with the top. Grab inbetween the hands and you lack the leverage. Grab with both hands and youare not jamming, you are contesting.

In case you don't believe me about the bo-staff being a leverage weapon you should visit a website on physics and study how power and force relate to long thin objects being used to strike an opponent. I would include a diagram but that would be presumptuous.

I've donr it. I've hit opponents who were pressed agasint me with a functionally similar weapon (a great sword made of rattan).

 

I don't need to argue the physics, I've done the hit... often. You *can* generate a great deal of power on either end by pivoting, it *is* enough to reliably get a stick-jock to 'call" (even when thrown relatively lightly).

 

I'm not sure what pert of "I've done it" makes you feel that you arguing your theories on biomechanice (this isn't phyiscs, we are not discussing rigid pointal mass items) will cause me to suddenly believe that what I have actually done didn't really happen.

And since the weapon has been reduced to a push force at close range, especially when pressing against the opponent, my claim that it can be easily jammed is true.

The ends are not pussing, they are hitting. You should know that a push would not count as a blow in the SCA.

I wrote what I wrote to demonstrate that it is just as easy for someone to "demonstrate" the infallability of a technique through words as it is to disprove the very same technique. You claimed that you could easily demonstrate how you could defeat attempts to jam you holding a bo.

 

But you ahve not. You have not described anywhere you could jam the weapon.

To universally claim the bo is a weapon that cannot be jammed easily is not true. It can be when approached properly. Conversely, when wielded properly it becomes more difficult. But, then again, you reached that conclusion at the end of your last post. "...at least if they are using it at all well."

All right, that cinces it, you are not reading what I actually said.

 

FROM MY *FIRST* POST ON THE SUBJECT:

 

"That "[the difficulty of jamming]" depends entirely on how you use it." [the staff] "The European quarterstaff skills work best up close, and the indonesian spear stuff still works quite well. "

 

- Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:12 pm

 

I have ALWAYS maintind it depended on how it was used. I have from the beginning arguing only that it was difficult to jam a staff used in the fashons above.

[Martial_Artist]

You know what, Jerry? I have sufficiently explained how to accomplish defeating a bo at close distance and the mechanics behind doing such. Further need to demonstrate to "you" is not what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

 

As I stated I am clarifying to the other readers who may not understand how the mechanics work behind jamming, countering, clinching, and otherwise breaking the offense of a staff.

 

About jamming, I have twice demonstrated how to. Both times also involved taking out the wielder of the staff at the same time. The point of the jam explained, as brief as it was, was to ultimately remove the wielder from capacity to act.

 

As for the SCA I'm not applying SCA rules to jamming a staff. You brought that up.

 

Get close enough to a staff and the ability of the staff to perform is removed. I'm not talking about simply approaching the staff and taking hold of it idly. I'm talking about ending the conflict by approaching the staff and removing the wielder. Taking a hit to the hand/forearm in exchange for a hit to the thigh/leg/back at close range is more than fine in order to deliver a punch to the face of the opponent, jam his movements, contest the weapon and end the fight.

 

So, yes, regardless of the hand I choose to use my body will be positioned so that whatever counter the wielder of the bo tries to use(seeing as the counter can only come from the opposite end of the weapon[not including if the wielder decides to let go and use a free hand to attack]) the first blow will be enough to take and redirect in order to close the range and the counter will be next to useless at that point. Simultaneously, I am attacking the wielder, who is trying to manuever his longarm to get a decent hit. The result is quick, and the effect devastating.

 

But, then again, you've done it before. So, I guess it doesn't matter what I write. However, not all my statements are for your sole benefit.

Tell me how you would imagine the Jam starting and I'll walk you through beating them up while they try.

It seems to me that you seemed pretty universal in stating that the bo is not an easy weapon to jam. Which, after all, is the only comment I replied to.

 

Good luck with the SCA, it can be lots of fun, but don't let it overly govern how you think real combat with weapons is done. I have a lot of respect for most SCA guys, but more than a great majority of them don't know what they're doing with weapons. Even if you can only strike from 90degrees. That, there, is a limitation which should send up some red flags about how combat is approached in the SCA. Which is why I only participated as a guest, more of an observer really, and did not join up.

 

MA.

[JerryLove]

"taking out" the weilder is not jamming... nor is getting a takedown, nor shooting him, nor any other red-herring you've thrown up to avoid addressing the issue of jamming.

 

Staves can be weilded with effect at body contact range. They work, I've used similar items that way. They don't jam easily by their nature.

[JerryLove]

I'm gonna amend and back up a little. I spent some of the weekend playing specifically with jamming the staff. The results while not as jammed as you were implying did require me to do a little more manuvering than I have been asserting (IOW, some of the responses I was suggesting I could not readily pull off, though I found others).

 

Some is certainly my lack of skill at half-staff work, but some is error on my part in response to smothering a staff.

[ak74auto]

Street fight this, street fight that..... I dont know anyone who actively gets in street fights.

 

Anyway though,

 

I dont care if you use a Bo Staff or not.. in a REAL street fight.. I would blow you away with my 9mm, or Luger, or .44 cal. No Bo staff is a match for that in a REAL street fight.

 

If thats really what your worried about, go get yourself a gun license/permit and start going to the shooting range.

 

Not to mention, in a real street fight, who in the hell is gonna be walking down the street with a Bo staff, kinda hard to conceal.

 

Two good weapons, that arent firearms. are the dagger/knife and the Cane.

 

The cane is an awesome weapon to learn, not only is it very very effective, but you can take it anywhere. You can take it on a plane, in the mall, to school, to work..

 

Also, the knife. Since the knife is easily concealable, and lightweight, it would make an ideal choice for a fight with someone,

 

Nick

 

I think he just explained the concept of a true street fight. He who has the biggest toys , most knowledge , and willingness to use it wins !

 

Nunchucks aren't going to be encountered too often , pocket knives oh the other hand.....

[Shorin Ryuu]

Poor, poor Raphael...The sai are actually pretty fun (in my opinion at any rate). I do of course like the bo and nunchaku as well. I'm going to try to get into tonfa and kama, but haven't had any training in them yet.

 

As far as self-defense goes, weapon training is probably good because if you know how to use it, its easier to defend against and while weapons you use or are being used against you probably aren't exactly sai or nunchaku or bo, they might be similar to them, like a giant salad fork (just kidding) or rope or a bat or something.

[Synaesthesia]

This is not, and was not, a discussion of "what can I do to take out the guy with the staff (same to you andrew, it was not about a take down). This was a specific claim that the staff is easy to jam... it is not, it is very hard to jam... at least if they are using it at all well.

 

I agree that the difficulty of dealing with a pole can easily be underestimated. The pole generates tremendous power and can change direction very fast. If you took a direct hit to the forearm from a competent poleman it would surely snap, and even if you're close, they could have room to take another full swing at you if they step back as they strike. Secondly, even at closer ranges, the thrust from the pole can be difficult to block due to it's agility. Thrusts are very effective for pole vs pole combat.

 

As for personal weapons, I recently bought a knife. I've stopped carrying it because of the legal considerations around a 9", fixed blade, double edged thrusting dagger with rapid access upside down sheath.

 

Instead, I carry a pair of chopsticks wrapped together. I practice regularly on a stump of wood to get used to hitting hard blows at small targets like ribs or eyes.

 

I do agree that it is possible to jam the pole vs barehand, a jam/strike combination is the only really plausible candidate I can think of. If the jam required that I take a blow, I would definitely attempt to use some armour such as a chair. I would NEVER willingly take a direct blow from a polearm with such range.

 

As for an open area with no equalizer I would run to live again another day.