Karate and Wing Chun? Relations?

[Beer-monster]

Today while practising the well known Naihanchi kata, I was astounded by the similarities to wing chun. Although wider and lower the Naihanchi stance was similar to the triangular based Yee Gee Kim Yuen Ma, and used the triangle shape to generate power. The application of the knife hand blow was similar to WC as well, and the whole bunkai of the kata seemed tailored towards the close range combat style of WC.

 

There also seemed to be definite Fuk Sao motions in Tensho kata as well.

 

I know both styles were influenced by Fujian White crane, but I thought Karate was much more distant and more Long Fist based.

 

Any thought or info on this link or am I grabbing at straws. Hopefully this will be a lively thread, as it make the MA world seem a little smaller.

[SaiFightsMS]

Interesting point. Some of the older Okinawan forms did come from China. Their origins are obscured by time. It is interesting though to look at them from other points of view though.

 

The Naihanchi katas seem to have a wide variety of interpretations and many differing interpretations. They are really quite fascinating if you look beyond the surface.

[Kensai]

Well ALL karate came from China, as did mainy arts. Some were more influenced by the more leggy northern styles and others the more violent southern styles.

[Beer-monster]

Thats not strictly true, although heavily influenced by Chinese arts, (many kata are named after chinese fighters eg wanshu and Karate orignial meant china hand) modern karate is a mix of chinese arts and indiginous okinawan styles.

 

The point of the discussion is not that Karate was influenced by china, that is obvious. But rather the depth of the relation and to what arts it id derived, there are over 1000 recorded styles of Kung Fu, not all of them influenced karate. Also karate and wing chun and vastly different at first glance and take different strategies and ranges and prinviple behind fighhting. That they could be as closely related as Naihanchi indicates is quite amazing I think.

[superleeds]

Our style Chito-Ryu is very similar to some Kung-Fu styles. O'Sensei Chitose was thaught the fighting style Ti, which apperantly is a Kung Fu style. (I'm not a 100% certain that Ti is a Kung-Fu style) we also use the White Crane kata.

[FinalHope]

Actually, Karate did originate in China. Buddhist monks developed the art of the china or empty hand, and then brought it to okinawa teaching others. That was very brief, but basically it.

[AGKK_Karateka]

In the foreward to Patrick McCarthy's "The Bible of Karate: Bubishi" the historical case for traditional Karate kata being developed from Quan (or forms) taught (developed?) in Southern China during the Quing dynasty before being transferred to Okinawa is described.

 

The traditional Karate kata often have numbers for names i.e. Sanchin [3] Seisan [13] Seipai [18] Sanseru [36] Suparinpei [108]. I presume that these quan would have influenced and have been influenced by the various Southern Chinese styles (including Win Chun?).

 

I assume that the similarities would be based on the fundamental principals contained in the kata (the form being a vehicle for understanding dynamic knowledge). The more modern Karate katas were developed to organise, promote and culturally develop a Japanese way (hence the many "at glance" differences between Japanese, Okinawan and Chinese arts).

[SaiFightsMS]

During an early period of history there was a very prolific trade among the pacific rim. There was a lot of exchange of information about the martial arts that was also exchanged during the same time period. Some cross training and adaption of techniques and forms would have been inevitable.

[choylefutsanda]

when asking your self is karate influenced by kung fu, one can look at another fact which is most kung fu styles are influenced from shoalin. my choy le fut style is an inlfuence from shaolin but is it the same as shaolin, no! Just basic applications are the same. Shaolin it self is an inluence from an ancient Indian training or fighting style. so the point is does it really matter were it came from, what matters to me is, does it work?

[Beer-monster]

Thatshe true. But the origin the style and its similarities to other styles is a point of interest to myself and I was hoping that it was to others as well and would make for a good discussion.