Jeet Kune Do

[YODA]

I think bludhall just about captured it.

 

I have trained with a number of Wing Chun people and have yet to be impressed. I've also "liberated" a few and opened a few eyes.

 

Wing Chun IS a great art and it has answers to SOME of the questions - but by no means all of them.

 

 

[Shaolin]

On 2001-08-29 00:59, thaiboxerken wrote:

 

The legs too can be used to control and off-balance an opponent, in Silat there are many techniques that use footwork and kicks to control the opponent so that the hands can be used to strike. Wing Chun uses mostly hand trapping.. other systems use leg-trapping.

 

Not true. Wing Chun has Sticking Legs (Chi Gerk), which is essentially Chi-Sao for the feet...

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 04:57 ]

[Shaolin]

On 2001-08-28 15:01, thaiboxerken wrote:

 

Bruce Lee moved to the USA, that's why he stopped learning Wing Chun from the Yip Man......He realized that Wing Chun didn't have all the answers..

 

If his Wing Chun knowledge was incomplete how could he understand it's limitations? It would make more sense to say he understood the limitations of his knowledge.

 

 

On 2001-08-28 15:01, thaiboxerken wrote:

 

The "centerline" concept is in many arts and not just Wing Chun. I know Silat uses alot of centerline theory and so do many Karateka. Control the centerline, control the fight. It's not always true though.

 

It is true... If you are in control of the line you are in control - when you lose control you have lost the line..assuming that either person is actually trying to use the Centerline or knows how.

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 05:39 ]

[Shaolin]

On 2002-03-05 09:54, bludhall wrote:

 

Sorry but i have to disagree with some of you.

 

I trained in Wing Chun before i got into JKD.

 

I found it top be a very impractical and even uncomfortable art lacking a great many things.

 

Combat is more than punching.

 

Training in JKD wing chun was liberating to say the least.

 

What was impractical? Most consider it quite practical. If what you studied was not then I would look at the source, there are pleanty of lousy schools out there, which doesn't mean they all are. Wing Chun is the simplest system in terms of what it does - steal balance and keep pounding the enemy until they drop - sounds practical to me.

 

If you mean that it is missing things like throws or joint locks this is because the creators of the system believed that snapping the enemy's head back at close range and chopping the neck etc takes less time than flipping them repeatedly - I agree.

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 05:30 ]

[Shaolin]

When Bruce came over from Hong Kong he was a fresh-faced 18 year old kid. How could it be that this kid was able to turn so many so called karate masters into students overnight? Are we really to believe that this was simply a result of his natural ability and charisma? Absurd. Bruce was able to do things to these ‘experts’ that they could not believe nor understand. Clearly his Wing Chun gave him the ability to do this. In an article I read many years after Bruce had died Joe Lewis related in an interview how he never did understand how Bruce used to use these ‘forward blocks’ - this was Bruce's core - everything else came from it.

 

The success of Wing Chun is well known and many Wing Chun students, it could be said, are very confident in their skills. This is largely because of the success in the many challenge matches in Hong Kong many years ago and in self defense situations today. Not too many years ago some people from my family traveled to asia and fought against other styles including Muy Thai and they did quite well according to Dai SiHing Mickey Chan, although one was disqualified for kicking a Muy Thai guy in the groin too many times. In the old days many members of Yip Man’s school would fight in challenge matches with great success. The Late Great Grand Master Yip Man had told his students that, "If any student of mine who can truly perform the system up to the 2nd form ever loses a fight to another style I'll throw myself off the top of the school’s roof ..." Many other Sifus in Wing Chun, including my own (Moy Yat) would not hesitate to tell students to fight, rather ‘kick his ball…’ if challenged or threatened. So there are a lot of people out there who know how effective this system can be. Now this doesn’t mean that some students cannot apply the system in combat – some can’t and this will always be true for all systems – some students just don’t have what it takes.

 

In Bruce's case he never had the chance to finish his Wing Chun training because he was forced out of the school. He continued his training with Wong Shung Leung but when Bruce arrived in the States he had learned only about half the Wing Chun system. Bruce had told many of his close friends at that time that he knew he couldn't beat his Wing Chun seniors such as Wong Shung Leung using his Wing Chun - they were just too far ahead of him....So he needed another way...he needed liberation from the ‘nucleus’, from the limitation he faced: Wing Chun was now the wall and in order to grow past this limitation, he needed another way: Meet Jeet Kune Do, which is mainly based on Wing Chun concepts. Back in those days he also told his Kung Fu brothers that he had created a new ‘art’ and it's 'mother' was Wing Chun. Bruce with half of the Wing Chun system was the first person to bring remnants of a real Chinese fighting system to the states and it had quite an impact. From that point forward Wing Chun had a major impact on many other arts, either directly or indirectly, JKD, Ed Parker’s Kempo, were just the beginning, many other styles straining to understand their own fragmented systems were soon after using Wing Chun type terminology – quite a contribution for an art that seems to be getting bashed around quite a bit just now.

 

Wing Chun is still poorly understood even by those who’s systems were hatched from it like JKD. In order for Wing Chun to work several key or core concepts must be adhered to, without them the probability for success in combat is greatly diminished. Some of these basics are: Centerline Theory, energy issuing, facing, conservation of motion, arm and leg sticking, following, hand unity, hand replacement and many other basic Wing Chun concepts. Many so called systems that borrow from Wing Chun try to use some of its methods but always leave key things out and fill them in with other things – this is not Wing Chun and all bets are off when you start changing the basics. If this is your only experience with Wing Chun you are missing something - from Wing Chun that is.

 

Wing Chun is designed for hand to hand combat – the kind of fighting Seals do – and not surprisingly the Seals and other SF people use concepts from Wing Chun or similar to Wing Chun, because it represents the fastest way to take an enemy out and specializes in addressing Reaction Delay in combat. This means that when in combat we always experience a delay before we can react. Everything that makes Wing Chun unique is a direct result of dealing with this reaction delay and is unique to the Wing Chun system. Wing Chun can always react in less time than the opponent, given the same situation because Wing Chun is always simpler - be it in movement, theory, training methods, the way you think in a fight, is all radically different that other systems and this is so in order to address reaction delay. Just a few examples: Centerline Theory, Filling the Centerline, Conservation of motion, Advanced Weapon Structure, Sticking Hands training, and a fighting mind that thinks in a simplified application of fighting concepts that clears his mind and allows it to adapt. While it may be easier to learn Western Boxing, which is a sport, this does not mean it is more efficient simply because it takes less time to learn. I could make up an art of the Hammer-Fist that takes 30 seconds to learn, this however, does not make it more efficient.

 

Wing Chun uses all of its parts to achieve one common goal and that is to maximize its attributes. For example: Wing Chun has amazing kicking ability but this is virtually unknown to outsiders, its sticking legs and kicks allow Wing Chun to dominate this range in order to get into its preferred range with a positional advantage. At its preferred range Wing Chun can avoid any reaction delay completely and feel how to defeat the enemy without the need to even see him. Other styles have an amusing tendency to run away when confronted in this range – at least in my experience. This was confirmed for me by Bruce in written accounts of his fights where he said he would end up chasing opponents down the street throwing punches at the back of their heads.

 

Wing Chun is half external and half internal. These days it is always the internal aspects of systems that confuse people. Most Westerners cannot open there minds enough to accept the Eastern notion of softness defeating hardness. To many Western minds this is all sissy stuff that means nothing in combat. For people of this mindset it is better that they stay within the confines of pure externalism or hardness for this is all they are capable of understanding - hard systems for hard heads I always say.

 

I personally have found the system to be incomparable - anytime I have used it, either in the street or in sparring. The system allows the user to apply concepts not just traps, punches and kicks. Using these concepts I have found it possible to deal with just about any situation so far. Just after I had left my Karate school I was still sparring with guys from a local Karate schools. As with most people I found there were always some people that I could dominate and some that could dominate me. Imagine my amazement when after only a few weeks of Wing Chun I found that not only could I handle my tougher sparring partners, but that they could no longer handle me. That’s was all the convincing I needed.

 

Many years later I find the system to be fantastic and applicable even in situations I used to think it couldn’t handle such as against grapplers. Yes the core concepts are applicable even against those who would prefer to roll around in the muck. Many of my kung-fu brothers such as William Moy who weighs only about 135 pounds has used his Wing Chun against as many as three attackers at once in the subway. Other students have had similar success. While other styles debate whether it is even possible to do these things we keep doing them over and over again. Wing Chun, means Forever Springtime and so it’s no wonder that there are always new things to be found in the system and new ways to use the system in today’s world - Wing Chun is always fresh, new, simple, direct, alive and adaptable – that’s Wing Chun.

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 06:24 ]

[Shaolin]

On 2002-03-08 14:15, YODA wrote:

 

I've also "liberated" a few and opened a few eyes.

 

Please open my eyes. What is it that all us classical Wing Chun stylists are missing? Feel free to be specific.

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 04:58 ]

[YODA]

Hi Jim

 

I don't think ALL you classical Wing Chun stylists are lacking - I haven't met you all

 

I've opened a few eyes (not just WC eyes) to the following.....

 

- Any art that is predominantly based on a physical structure & range can & will be found lacking when that range or structure cannot be achieved or maintained. If it can then great - but as always- things have a nasty way of not going to plan when it hits the fan!

 

- Any art can be improved upon by researching common ground between it & other systems.

 

- There are guys out there that will take your best shots, look you in the eye, and keep coming.

 

- There is no magic pill to martial arts skill. It takes work, hard work, years of hard work. I recommend you read the article entitled "Selling the dream" on my website - sums it up very well I feel.

 

I will add at this point that I have been VERY impressed with very combative and efficient Wing Chun - but it has always been JKD people that I have experienced doing it, and yes, some of them have got that skill from Wing Chun people, Francis Fong comes to mind.

 

 

 

 

[Shaolin]

On 2002-03-09 07:11, YODA wrote:

 

Any art that is predominantly based on a physical structure & range can & will be found lacking when that range or structure cannot be achieved or maintained.

 

I thought all systems were based on some kind of structure and range.

On 2002-03-09 07:11, YODA wrote:

 

Any art can be improved upon by researching common ground between it & other systems.

 

This makes some assumptions about the art in question that I may not agree with. I also have some doubt about what you mean by improved. Remember less is often more - Bruce said, as I recall something like - refining one's art should be a daily reduction not daily addition - no?

 

Love to talk about this stuff over lunch with you but we're way too far apart.

On 2002-03-09 07:11, YODA wrote:

 

There are guys out there that will take your best shots, look you in the eye, and keep coming.

 

Okay well I suppose this is true but I find it really hard to believe that anyone is going to take a full power and full penetration Dim Jung under the chin followed by a Lan Sao to the neck and multiple follow-ups at close range.

On 2002-03-09 07:11, YODA wrote:

 

There is no magic pill to martial arts skill. It takes work, hard work, years of hard work. I recommend you read the article entitled "Selling the dream" on my website - sums it up very well I feel.

 

No magic pill? Okay I did know that - I am not a neophyte.

 

I read the article. I have done multiple searches just now and much reading over the years: I have never heard of any fight between Gene and Bruce, nor have I been able to find any mention of a fight. Do you really mean a fight? They did train together and work together and share information but I am not aware of any fight. If you really mean fight I would like some corroboration if at all possible.

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-09 22:03 ]

[spinninggumby]

Hi Shaolin

 

My knowledge of the specifics of Wing Chun is extremely miniscule, but it is to the best of my knowledge that there is not much focus on grappling? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

Your positive opinion on the effectiveness of Wing Chun is obvious, but I am curious as to what your thoughts are concerning cross-training. Do you feel that if one studies and trains hard with a committed soul under a credible Wing Chun instructor, that he should not study anything else (perhaps for fear of intermingling ideas or concepts or even information overload)? It is hard for me to see the harm for a Wing Chun practitioner to dabble or practice a grappling art, like, say, Brazilian Jujitsu. I am not implying that Wing Chun is a flawed or incomplete art. Just because an art does not include techniques which may be needed in certain aspects of combat does not make it incomplete, but that is a different topic.

 

But say you are on the street, and someone jumps you from behind and takes you to the ground. You are caught off guard. With your excellent Wing Chun skills, you are a master of distance control, sensitivity, trapping, centerline targeting, and ultimately neutralizing the enemy from close or even perhaps any type of standing distance (this is all from a layman's point of view). However, once you are on the ground, it is a whole new ball game (for lack of better term). For the sake of argument, would you agree that there are indeed other concepts or skills that other arts may have to offer (i.e. perhaps how to effectively and quickly neutralize an attacker in a ground situation)?

 

It is just my humble opinion that no art has all the answers, and no art is the best simply because no art will ever work the best for everyone (therefore there can never be an ultimate art). I am not saying that you refer to Wing Chun as the ultimate art with all the answers, but if you do, then refer to what I just said

 

Once again, I am only assuming that Wing Chun includes little to no grappling training. So once again correct me if I am wrong.

 

_________________

 

Want to know if a man's ideologies are correct? See if he is happy every morning as he arises from bed.

 

[ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-09 23:34 ]

[Shaolin]

On 2002-03-09 23:27, spinninggumby wrote:

 

My knowledge of the specifics of Wing Chun is extremely miniscule, but it is to the best of my knowledge that there is not much focus on grappling? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

There are certain basic elements that as I understand it must be present in a system to be a complete art. Some of these things are energy issuing, balance control and a practical combat theory. Without these things one does not really have a complete combat system. Wing Chun uses these things to apply the system of Wing Chun. Energy issuing and balance control are critical to controlling the enemy and preventing him from controlling you. Even a good grappler cannot take you down if you control his balance and so Wing Chun focuses on balance control as does a grappler but we do it standing up through the issuing of energy.

 

I have said in other posts that despite what many other BJJ people say. I do not like the idea of rolling around on the ground hugging some crazed attacker in the subway, whose teeth are inches away from my ear and neck etc – just not my thing. I prefer systems that are standup oriented. If BJJ is stand up oriented then I stand corrected but that’s not what I have seen. The ground IMO is best left for sport not the subway.

 

 

 

My understanding is that traditional Wing Chun does not use chin-na, or grappling as we know it today because grappling takes too long to apply in combat. Wing Chun is intended to be a fast stand-up close quarters hand to hand system designed to take out the enemy as fast as possible.

 

The strikes in the system are thought to be the fastest way to achieve this. The close distance and connection that you have with the opponent makes a unique combination for striking. Strikes can be delivered with tremendous penetration and power because of the close distance and fact that you are often pulling the opponent into the hits, which are focused on snapping the opponent's head back in combination with neck shots. My Sifu used to say, "We don't have time to choke him or lock him, we just take him out and move on to the next one..."

 

Some families, I think Leung Ting's group have incorporated some grappling moves into their training. Which is fine, but not really Wing Chun as I know it.

 

 

On 2002-03-09 23:27, spinninggumby wrote:

 

Your positive opinion on the effectiveness of Wing Chun is obvious, but I am curious as to what your thoughts are concerning cross-training......say you are on the street, and someone jumps you from behind and takes you to the ground. You are caught off guard.

 

I have no problem with cross-training and in fact I am very excited about starting Aikido as soon as I can to expand my abilities. I think that the two arts complement each other very well using similar theories except in reverse - one is almost the inverse of the other so the balance between them should be interesting. Likewise if a Wing Chun guy wants to do a little BJJ that's fine too. I happen to loath the emphasis on ground-work but I would not mind doing a very short stint in a BJJ class for practical reasons.

 

Wing Chun is very good at messing someone up but not so good at being gentle or giving you the option to use restraining moves on people who you may not want to hurt too badly. I have been in situations where I didn't feel right messing the guy up. In that case I would have been happy to get him in a wrist lock while we waited for the police to come instead of using my mouth to talk him to death. This is one of the reasons that I want to do some Aikido - plus I think it'll be lots of fun too

 

 

It is just my humble opinion that no art has all the answers, and no art is the best simply because no art will ever work the best for everyone (therefore there can never be an ultimate art). I am not saying that you refer to Wing Chun as the ultimate art with all the answers, but if you do, then refer to what I just said

 

Well to me Wing Chun is not designed for a particular person or body type although it could be argued that it favors some body types over others I suppose. But to me this misses the point. The point is that this system was designed for a particular purpose: To defeat the enemy as fast as possible in a no-nonsense survival situation. That’s just what Wing Chun does from beginning to end and I think it does it the best.

 

Jim