Throws? Effective?

[Kyle-san]

I've found that most throws don't work in competitions because both opponents have (usually) trained doing throws and have found subtle ways to counter them. A little shift of the weight/positioning of the feet can ruin a very nice throw very quickly. I can't see that same principle being applied "on the street", though.

 

Kensai, care to translate for us non-Japanese speakers?

[Beer-monster]

You really think seoi-nage. Involves quite a bit of movement and muscle, I woulda thought seoi otoshi if I was to use that grip.

 

Kokyu nage, good one, I've always wanted to learn that throw. Could never get it right.

[Kensai]

I love Kokyu nage, its my favourite technique. But very hard to get right.

 

Once you have technique and momentum with Seoi nage its a real killer. Tai otoshi to it pretty snappy.

 

Sorry Kyle San

 

Seoi Nage, ARm throw

 

Osotogari, Major outter reap

 

Ouchigari, major inner reap

 

shihonage, four direction throw

 

Kokyu nage, breath throw.

[jiu-jitsu fighter]

I think that throws are good, if you want to learn them and practice them great, but most people like myself don't have the times to train all areas of combat and this may require cross-training, personally i train my boxing/mt skills but only to a certain extent and than its jiu-jitsu, so really my throwing isn't that good, like hip throw, o-soto gari ,ouchigari, but my bjj takedowns are pretty good. so for this reason i feel that developping my throws isn't my priority.

 

I find that striking skills will compensate for my lack of throwing skills. although i would love to be able to throw a guy across the room.

[Beer-monster]

I agree with you Jui-jitsu fighter, you cant train mastery of everything, but although I do train a little ground work, I don't really have the size or upper body strength needed to be proficient at it.

 

I try to cover this with my striking arts and a knowledge of how to maintain distance, and strike in close ranges with knees and elbows (karate is good for both of these) to avoid being pulled to the floor, or if I am to make sure they have taken quite a beating first.

 

However in my opinion, in a fight the best position to be in is when they are on the floor (preferably choking around a bloody nose ) and I'm standing, so I can either kick em, run away or take on his mates.

 

Unfortunately it can take a lot of good, hard hits to knock a guy down, so thats where throws come in, so I wanted to see what people thought are the best throws for the street so I could try em in sparring and test them out.

 

Also I noticed a certain lack of such techniques in pride which I thought curious.

 

Aikido throws are good, but a little too gentle in my opinion, they also seem to require a lot of space and distance to move (a luxury in a crowded pub). Also like many of the best throws they require full use of the attackers momentum, which is good, but make it hard to slip a hard punch of shoto uchi strike in. But I'm just speculating on what I've seen, What do you think Kensai?

[Kyle-san]

Thanks Kensai.

[Kensai]

Gentle is not the word I would use. I would use subtle. Just because it requires little movement, does not always mean that it is gentle.

 

One of my Sensei's other students was telling me of a fight she saw, in the local pub we go down to after Aikido. And my Sensei (female about 5'9) threw a man threw a solid fire door. Now thats not gentle to me. I think in the dojo, generally, Aikidoka have the welfare of their Uke in mind and dont want to drop them to hard or across knee's and various other joint maipulations as well as strikes.

 

In reality, I would have no problem doing any of these things. A great example of this would be a shihonage, now I always let go of the throw when standing, however, in reality you would smash them into the floor, causing atleast 3 breaks and possibly something unpleasant to the spine and neck.

 

I think they are just as powerful as a good Judo hip throw, however, they take longer to get to the same level of power. Just in my opinion ofcourse.

[Beer-monster]

Hm, strange. Most aikido what I have seen is powerful but requires a lot of wide and sometimes complex sweeping movements. But you said it doesn't involve much movement. I must have been seeing the wrong people.

 

However hip throws and Aikido techniques require full use of momentum which makes it hard to get a definitive strike in before the throw ( I'm trying to go for the strike(s), Takedown, finish, leg it strategy).. Particularly the use of irimi or entering for a throw like Koshi Garuma makes it hard to get in a good gyaku tsuki, but its neccessary for the throw.

 

Kensai could you tell me about how your Judo traing for throws compares with your aikido training? Doing tradiotional ju-jitsu I kind of assume our method for throws are a mix of both.

[Kensai]

Most Aikido training begins with LARGE circles requiring you Uke to "follow" the techniqe. However as you get better and better, the circles become smaller and smaller. Thats the difference between the Tenkan movements, (which I think you were discribing) and the Irimi's. Irimi are a lot more subtle, but require more training.

 

With regard to striking, the strikes you have thus discribed ie gyaku tsuki, require a large area of exchange from the hip to the point of impact. However in Aikido, no such strikes excist. When using Te Gatana, the movement is small. The atemi in most cases is not the drop your attacker, but to move his/her mind, so you stop them thinking about what you are about to do to them. The strikes in Aikido, require that step forward into your partners place. To control the center of the combat area, sorta like how the Planets spin around the sun. Its important to control the center, once their, all manor of avenues open for strikes, projections and pins.

 

Judo and Aikido vary greatly, but also cross over in certain places.

 

Judo, as Kano wanted, is a very scienfic art. Its all about leavers and physics. The throws are very precise, everything has a place. In Aikido, we never talk of science. Only about Ki energy. We try to understand how this energy moves and how best to manipulate it, change its direction and so fourth. Its open alot more to interpretation. Aikido throws are on the the basis of relaxation, Judo throws being the same in one respect, if you are using to much strength its probably wrong. But they do require more "physical ability" that perhaps Aikido ones do.

 

What style of JJ do you study?

[Bhayl]

I don't have too much to add to what Kensai has already said regarding Aikido throws. Subtle is a very good word for it. While a lot of throws can be the wide complex sweeping movements, they don't have to be - some of that may also depend on the style you saw. I know we practice both in class. Some throws it's possible to get strikes in, some it's more difficult - it's a work in progress for me.