What's wrong with karate?

[Rich]

LOL! No you have never been in a real fight have you! These targets are quite hard to hit without the right training particularly when you add the bit that you forgot ie Mr Thug is intent on ripping your head off and p***ing down your throat. Your level of fear and how that effects everything you do plus his level of aggression bearing down on you is going to mess up most of your cherished beliefs in a rather bloody way I'm afraid.

 

Anyway black belts are much over-rated- I never wear mine now. They have lost much of their meaning even in the sense of accomplishing something, as in many places its too easy to get belts and a lot of schools are money making enterprises first and decent schools second.

 

Mandy- nice to see someone who actually, at whatever level, can understand that kata and self-preservation are closely tied. You may enjoy researching bunkai- apart from anything else it makes a session far more interesting.

 

Regards

 

Rich

[mandy003]

i have been in real fights when i have had to use it. where i come from its either fight or get your head kicked in so the fear factor is quite high. but keeping your cool in a situation is also important if u panic then your attacker has the ultimate advantage. the fact that i know karate helps as it helps prepare the mind for what may or may not happen. and the fact that i know that i could possibly defend my self helps me stop from panicing.

 

i have found that through learning karate i have stood a higher chance of getting myself out of a situation than i did before i knew it. so speaking from experience i have found that karate does work, if not physically then mentally. by being mentally prepared it can help alot!

 

rich- i agree some clubs do give belts away, however i do not think that black belts are over rated. they are the same as other grades except from the point of reaching black belt you beginto learn. Some black belts think they are great and are unstoppable but that isnt the case. Not all black belts are like this though. i reached my junior dan grade last april and re sat it for my senior in december onc e i had turned 16 and i give the respect to those higher or below my grade. a grade doesnt matte its the martial artist that counts. a lower grade could easily beat a black belt so everyone should be given the repsect which they deserve.

[AndrewGreen]

People think that JuiJitsu is better than karate because of the UFC. Well try rolling around on the street and see how that works for you. I'd rather kick someone in the stomach have them fold over and I'm on my way.

 

Couple of things,

 

A jujitsu fighter against a non-grappling person will benefit from the cement. They will be on top mounted, side mounted or knee mounted. And they will be doing.... STRIKING, pounding you into that cement until you turn your back to avoid those strikes and then choke you out.

 

Also you don't always get to stay on your feet. You get rushed, tackled, trip, slip, or whatever and your on your back with a guy on top of you. Thats about the worst place you can be, and training what to do when your there whould be a top priority because of that.

[AndrewGreen]

Okay Andrew

 

Range- most street attacks will start off close in or by surprise

 

NHB- ref starts and competitors approach each other

 

Most often you know when a fight is about to happen. Very few people will just attack without warning out of no where. If they do you'll need to know how to take a hit, or get out of a bad position. NHB does this.

Environment- concrete underneath in street lots of times- changes dynamics completely- rewatch NHB and pretend mat is concrete and quite a few things don't work now, not without injury or worse.

 

Concrete will help the grappler. It will hurt more to get thrown on it and hurt more when he's on top which is where he will be because that is what he trains to do.

- accomplices of attacker (cant afford to get into a one on one for too long -zanshin)

 

How come bad guys alway have friends and good guys are always alone? One might start thinking the best way to make new friends is to become a bad guy...

- obstacles and/or weather- slippery street, glass, people in way etc. etc.

 

Obstacles which can cause you to end up on the ground? Nothing can be done about this. "Traditional" styles can't address this any better.

- weapons

 

Best train them too, lots of sparring. Seperated, in a clinch and on the ground.

- ma-ai (can't explain this in short paragraph-sorry It is very different tho between two in most of the fight)

 

Different people mean different things by ma-ai. Please explain.

- lack of rules- groin/ eyes/ ears/ throat- nuff said

 

Very hard to hit, unless you can control the fight. Who is in a better position to eyegouge, the guy on the top or the bottom of a knee mount?

- emotional content- dont underestimate this- your life could be forfeit in street- changes dynamics majorly

 

Again Traditional styles can't do any better, NHB is as close as you can get in a controlled environment.

- And so the list goes on....

 

Most of these are somewhat true, but MMA type training does better at training for them then traditional styles.

Couldn't agree more- the original Karate (pre 'traditional') was born out of the need for fighting for one's life and this predecessor did have it all.

 

How do you know this? Why would you even assume this?

 

Today we have far more resources, far more people working at it, safety equipment, full time martial artists, publicized competitions, etc.

 

Sports science has come along way since then, we have better training methods, better diets, better trainers, etc.

 

This fascination with the "ancients" and their being the best and most knowledgable is wrong. I just see it as the same sort of thing that kept western science back in the middle ages, an assumption that Aristotle was right and no one can know better.

 

He was wrong, Coppernicus was wrong, Gallilieo was Wrong, Newton was wrong, Einstien was wrong and so was every other scientist that ever lived. That doesn't mean we are neccessarily smarter, we might be, but we have far more resources then them. We should be better then they where.

 

 

 

However, there are modern training methods that can complement and enhance older forms definitely. I am a firm believer in aliveness training (and am not anti NHB actually )

 

Sarcasm eh Andrew...?

 

fireka- yeh there is a lot of emphasis on blocking which actually doesnt work very well. If you are interested have a look at the kata bunkai to see that what is usually translated as a block can be a disengagement from a grab, a strangle, a strike etc. Its fascinating and will take your art up a level.

 

Regards

 

Rich

[Rich]

Mandy- I wrote you a very complimentary post.

 

Andrew- I wrote a very long reply to your points.

 

The post was lost when I tried to submit it , as my connection had closed. I will reply to this but not for a while as I have been typing for the past hour.

 

Regards

 

Rich

[theswarm]

while i'm not discounting the style of BJJ i know it's fucken awesome

 

did any of you notice some major flaws about the karate guys and the kung fu guy versus the bjj guys? hello! stances! those were 3 of the worst fighting stances i've seen considering the training and arts that those stand up fighters were doing - although i have to admit that shotokan blackbelt didn't do too bad when he was on the ground but he got set up into that position (showing what great strategy grapplers have on the ground)

 

i would like to see a fight where the karateka uses a more lower and wider stance not simply stroll in and charge at the fight.

 

anyone got any judo or aikido versus bjj fights? I reckon that'd be interesting to watch (from those fights I saw, assuming those were good representations of Bjj i think it'd be pretty interesting)

[TJS]

anyone got any judo or aikido versus bjj fights?

 

very short clip of Murillo Bustamante(BJJ-black shorts) versus Joe Charles(judo-white shorts)

 

http://216.40.244.4/misc/uvt2/uvt2_bustamante_vs_charles.zip

 

another short clip of Joe charles Versus Stefanos(BJJ)

 

http://216.40.244.4/misc/wvc9/wvc9_miltsakakis_vs_charles.zip

 

I could proabably find more of judo but aikido videos are hard to come by...

[BKJ1216]

while i'm not discounting the style of BJJ i know it's * awesome

 

did any of you notice some major flaws about the karate guys and the kung fu guy versus the bjj guys? hello! stances! those were 3 of the worst fighting stances i've seen considering the training and arts that those stand up fighters were doing - although i have to admit that shotokan blackbelt didn't do too bad when he was on the ground but he got set up into that position (showing what great strategy grapplers have on the ground)

 

i would like to see a fight where the karateka uses a more lower and wider stance not simply stroll in and charge at the fight.

 

anyone got any judo or aikido versus bjj fights? I reckon that'd be interesting to watch (from those fights I saw, assuming those were good representations of Bjj i think it'd be pretty interesting)

I actually think the kung-fu guy faired better on the ground, even though he got bloddied up toward the end.

[theswarm]

but all the kung fu guy did was hook his legs together - i think the BJJ fighter was less skilled than the one that went against the karate one.

 

the karate guy kept trying to grab the BJJ guy in the face and the throat - and he kept holding close to the BJJ guys body - which as a BJJ friend of mine showed me that's something they do to stop getting hit you like grab onto their body close so they can't get range for punching you.

 

ill have to give those other ones a look

[Rich]

OK Andrew.

Quote:

 

- lack of rules- groin/ eyes/ ears/ throat- nuff said

 

 

 

Very hard to hit, unless you can control the fight. Who is in a better position to eyegouge, the guy on the top or the bottom of a knee mount?

 

Answer:the guy who took the eye out in the first few seconds standing up and never went to ground. I kid you not as I said we are talking self-preservation not empty handed duelling.

Quote:

 

Environment- concrete underneath in street lots of times- changes dynamics completely- rewatch NHB and pretend mat is concrete and quite a few things don't work now, not without injury or worse.

 

 

 

Concrete will help the grappler. It will hurt more to get thrown on it and hurt more when he's on top which is where he will be because that is what he trains to do.

 

Two things. Contrary to some people's skewed statistics the fight doesn't go to ground all the time, in fact decent street fighters will make sure they stay up so again you are thinking sports mentality. Second point NHB train without thought to surface as it is a sport and so in fights they both get rammed into the mat- again you need to change mentality to be more realistic to avoid training this in.

 

Ma-ai? Too long to give anything but a brief synopsis which really wouldn't help- hard training is needed using correct mentality, range etc.to understand. You need to know it in your body not necessarily to chat about it.

 

 

Quote:

 

- accomplices of attacker (cant afford to get into a one on one for too long -zanshin)

 

 

 

How come bad guys alway have friends and good guys are always alone? One might start thinking the best way to make new friends is to become a bad guy...

 

LOL! Read some of the excellent analyses of predators from the mugger to the drunken yob. Even if out with friends being on the ground is a bad place to be when multiple 'bad' guys are on your case.

Quote:

 

- obstacles and/or weather- slippery street, glass, people in way etc. etc.

 

 

 

Obstacles which can cause you to end up on the ground? Nothing can be done about this. "Traditional" styles can't address this any better.

 

Not so. Training outside in the environment you may be attacked in is important and the old masters knew this as it was part of life. You can also simulate obstacles by putting them around in the dojo and training around them.

Quote:

 

Couldn't agree more- the original Karate (pre 'traditional') was born out of the need for fighting for one's life and this predecessor did have it all.

 

 

 

How do you know this? Why would you even assume this?

 

A bit of a daft question. Firstly logic suggests so- why start an art that is about fighting, in a violent time, if it doesn't work? Secondly, I know the same way anyone learns anything- study, research, hard training. Karate had it all- it should be easy for you to start finding information to back this up from all the things I've said- check bunkai of katas and you'll see striking, grappling, breaking, locking, choking etc. etc.

 

I am not against modern methods, and neither would the old masters have been. I am not anti-NHB, I quite enjoy it. Sports science is useful- although isn't it funny how they rediscover what some of the old folk have been saying for years in many disciplines from health, nutrition and diet and weight training to name but few?

 

The main difference is attitude, and that dictates how you structure your training- what experiences you go after and how you perceive them. This is where you and the Karateka I have been talking about differ mainly I think.

 

My original reply went on for much longer but I haven't time to rewrite it all. I will stop contributing to this thread here because I will be too busy to give long replies for a while. Please try to understand that I agree that NHB gives training in many necessary attributes- there is just a world of difference between sport, however many rules less it has, and life.

 

(BTW I was quite shocked when the UFC went to gloves as this also skews things. People don't get hurt hands so easy and so can punch harder and longer and so increase the boxing type head injuries we were seeking to avoid- that's modern doctors for you sometimes!)

 

Regards

 

Rich