Question on belts....

[karatekid1975]

Jasep, I wouldn't say that either, because I came from TSD. Most ranks are honored from other TSD clubs as long as you can prove it ... like certs and skill. Even TKD students were honored with "skill." If you can prove it, you'd be able to keep your rank. But you can't walk off the street and say I have so and so rank in TKD or TSD, and expect to get it. My instructor knew the difference since he did 3 different arts in his life (TKD being one of them) and dabbled in others. You had to show proper technique, forms (since he knew ITF TKD and TSD forms), and a knowledge of self defense.

 

As far as belts. The black stripe in my TSD school didn't mean anything. The adult students had a black stripe through the whole thing, only to seperate the adults from the kids. The kids had a solid colored belt.

 

In TKD we wear solid color belts, but we earn stripes on the end of them ("tips" also). I wouldn't call it a marketing thing either, because we don't even pay for tests of any kind. My school is expensive (in my opinion), but they don't make you pay for any tests.

 

In Judo, we have just solid color belts and nothing else. It's about abililty here, not rank.

[JaseP]

Laurie,

 

What I'm saying is that there is a lot of difference between Gup (color belt rankings) and junior Dan (lower black belt rankings) versus senior Dan holders (Masters). Whereas it may be expected to at least go through some probationary period when switching schools, when you are a color belt or junior ranked back belt, Masters are treated differently. A horizontal red stripe through the center of a black belt (as opposed to those half-red/half-black poom belts which are gup/color belts) is called a Ko Dan Di, and denotes a Master. Since your sig line indicates that you are not even a junior Dan holder, you wouldn't have first hand knowledge of the way that Masters are treated. I speak from personal experience. If I were to change associations and take my students with me to a new federation, the new federation would probably investigate me a little and then welcome me in at my existing rank (many times complete with my promotion schedule). As someone who has trained over 21 years, I'd be insulted if confronted by a group of people with an average of training of 15-17 years who wouldn't honor my experience and knowledge. So there is a big difference.

 

Traditionally, in the Korean arts, there were no stripes through the belt other than the Ko Dan Di/Master's belt. The Koreans were poor and could not afford fancy belts and ranks. There were 4 colors,... White, Green, Red (or Brown) and Black (or Midnight Blue). The red stripe through the Master's belt was symbolic of the fact that when a person made black belt, they would sew the black fabric around the red belt. Eventually, the red would show through with age, hence the belt. The different colored color belts (yellow, orange, purple, (light) blue, etc) were added when the arts started exporting to other countries where the people weren't so patient to be a white belt for 1.5 years or so. Traditionally there are 10 Gup rankings to first Dan. Those belts were signified by either stripes or cuts in the belt.

 

Those striped color belts didn't even start becoming available commercially until about 1984. I remember when they first started showing up. A lot of use were like, "What's up with that??? It looks too much like a Master's belt (particularly the ones that were red belts with black stripes down the center)..."

[ninjanurse]

I think there is a place for striped belts in a system provided the Gup requirements do not change. What is the difference if you have a black stripe around your belt or a black tab on the end? Both can denote a senior ranking within that gup.

 

In my old school we used them for our 3-5 year olds who were in a junior program (karate rangers,little tigers, etc.).

 

The basic belt was white and the stripes were gup colors-they were earned in order of a regular gup belt, (i.e. orange,yellow,green,purple,etc.)- the last being red. This gave them something to earn and be proud of while they were learning the basic skills they needed to join a regular jr. class program. The skills they learned under that program usually put them at yellow belt which they tested for when they were ready.

 

We also had 2 levels of blue belt, 2 levels of brown belt, and 2 levels of red belt. The senior belt had a black stripe all the way around. I found it much easier to identify the students level of curriculum when teaching a multi ranked class (too hard to quickly count tabs). I guess everybody benefitted and the outcome (a good solid Black Belt) was positive.

 

Just my experience and opinion.

 

As far as honoring ranking when changing schools I agree with both sides. The individual should be evaluated not the color of their belt. Personally, if a colored belt (or black belt) student is switching styles-they should go to white belt. If they are switching schools within the same style it would be the instructors choice based the the students skills and abilities to learn. I do feel though that some respect is due to the students hard work on achieving their dan ranking and to the master instructor that gave it to them.

 

Ultimately it comes down to...do you want to train or are you stuck on what color belt you have holding up your pants?

 

[niel0092]

Really, if I switched to a new style I'd go back to white belt. I'm there to learn new things. If it's in the same style but different organization maybe let them keep their rank but just not test untill they are up to par. That's what we usually do.

[SBN Doug]

If I were to change associations and take my students with me to a new federation, the new federation would probably investigate me a little and then welcome me in at my existing rank (many times complete with my promotion schedule).

 

This is interesting. I see by your sig that you're 4th dan in TSD, and I'm interested in learning at what level TSD considers to be a master level. In KSW it isn't until 5th dan. Next, do you have knowledge as to whether your statement holds true for other arts as well, or can you only speak for TSD at the moment?

[ninjanurse]

Laurie,

 

What I'm saying is that there is a lot of difference between Gup (color belt rankings) and junior Dan (lower black belt rankings) versus senior Dan holders (Masters). Whereas it may be expected to at least go through some probationary period when switching schools, when you are a color belt or junior ranked back belt, Masters are treated differently. A horizontal red stripe through the center of a black belt (as opposed to those half-red/half-black poom belts which are gup/color belts) is called a Ko Dan Di, and denotes a Master. Since your sig line indicates that you are not even a junior Dan holder, you wouldn't have first hand knowledge of the way that Masters are treated. I speak from personal experience. If I were to change associations and take my students with me to a new federation, the new federation would probably investigate me a little and then welcome me in at my existing rank (many times complete with my promotion schedule). As someone who has trained over 21 years, I'd be insulted if confronted by a group of people with an average of training of 15-17 years who wouldn't honor my experience and knowledge. So there is a big difference.

 

Traditionally, in the Korean arts, there were no stripes through the belt other than the Ko Dan Di/Master's belt. The Koreans were poor and could not afford fancy belts and ranks. There were 4 colors,... White, Green, Red (or Brown) and Black (or Midnight Blue). The red stripe through the Master's belt was symbolic of the fact that when a person made black belt, they would sew the black fabric around the red belt. Eventually, the red would show through with age, hence the belt. The different colored color belts (yellow, orange, purple, (light) blue, etc) were added when the arts started exporting to other countries where the people weren't so patient to be a white belt for 1.5 years or so. Traditionally there are 10 Gup rankings to first Dan. Those belts were signified by either stripes or cuts in the belt.

 

Those striped color belts didn't even start becoming available commercially until about 1984. I remember when they first started showing up. A lot of use were like, "What's up with that??? It looks too much like a Master's belt (particularly the ones that were red belts with black stripes down the center)..."

 

It sounds to me like you have missed the point somewhere along the line. Respect/honor is earned because of the person you are, not the belt you wear.

 

I also wonder how a 4th dan can be considered a "master". I don't know of any art that considers any dan below 5th a "master". By that time you shouldn't have to prove who or what you are anyway!

 

[karatekid1975]

In TSD, master level is 4th dan.

 

I totally agree with you, Ninja. In my short time in MA, I cared about my rank. But now, I just train. I could care less about rank.

[SBN Doug]

Thanks Laurie.

[JaseP]

It sounds to me like you have missed the point somewhere along the line. Respect/honor is earned because of the person you are, not the belt you wear.

 

 

For someone who doesn't know you from Adam, they have nothing other than your rank to judge what you may know.

I also wonder how a 4th dan can be considered a "master". I don't know of any art that considers any dan below 5th a "master". By that time you shouldn't have to prove who or what you are anyway!

 

In the traditional Korean arts, 4th Dan WAS always traditionally the Master ranking, that was even the case for TaeKwonDo. It changed for TKD in the 1970s or so. It seems there were too many 4th Dans at the time in Korea. It takes about the same time to reach 4th Dan in Tang Soo Do as it does to reach 5th in TKD.

 

As for proving yourself, that is exactly my point. You shouldn't really need to prove yourself after reaching the Master's level. But someone asked what would be the effect of changing schools for someone who is a Master.

 

As for rank being unimportant, it is and it isn't. Rank is not as important as knowledge, experience and dedication (skill and talent? that's another story, there are plenty of Masters who just can't kick as high anymore or move as fast, and many of them can hand young talented whippersnappers their keisters). However, if you are teaching, rank is an important credential, as long as you got it the right way. The problem is that many people have promoted themselves, invented new systems based on old ones and made themselves 10th Dans, etc. But if you are teaching and you have students of advanced rank, it's necessary to hold a high rank for two reasons, (1) to have knowledge of curriculim which is more advanced, and (2) to show your students by example that continuous training is important and that working for promotions is an important step to monitor and mark your progress.

 

I really felt that rank wasn't important when I was a junior ranked black belt. But that was before I started to teach. Now I see it as a necessary indulgance.