whats the difference between shadow boxing and kata

[MuayThai Fighter]

MTF wrote

 

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Where as katas aren't really done for exercise,they're set movements done to practice, what traditional artists believe are away of self-defense,due to their hidden techniques,even though they're not.Most traditional artists also believe the more kata you practice the better a fighter you will become.They believe martial arts can't do without kata,for ex.kata is the essence of karate do.

 

Katas also involve different kinds of stances like shiko dachi,sanchin,etc. which are very much useless,where as in shadow boxing there are no stances other then natural fighting stance."""""

 

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Just to make the point kata hides a lot more than stances. You say I should not talk about shadow boxing and I say you should not talk about kata. LOL. When you get deep into the kata you see throws, locks, ways to grapple, weapon defense, breaks, etc. Point is kata has a lot of hidden stuff only a true student of their art will learn with years of of training.

 

As far as your statement about exercise please. Anything that gets the heart rate up is exercise. You can be walking to the bathroom and that is considered exercise. LOL. If you have ever done kata as in Shotokan you will know they are much more than just that. You legs ache from the low stances and when kata is done a full speed with proper timming you will be short of breath I promise.

 

MTF I really enjoy thiis conversation. I think it does a lot for both MT and Shotokan. However as you have seen a few of our threads have been closed because it has broken down to you say I say. Im asking you to help me keep it controled. Because as I said these posts do a lot to open our eyes about our own art. So stay away from personal attacks and lets just talk about our arts. I know its an emotional subject. However for the sake of keeping these posts alive and these topic active keep it on the up and up. LOL.

 

So I will be awaiting your post. I know you will have a good one.

 

Thanks for the note but not once did I say katas had only hidden stances in them.I said they have alot of hidden techniques.YA YA YA,I know what katas have locks.Ours had punches,kicks,blocks,breaking bones,poking eyes and more,and yes I know about the weapons katas,my favourite weapon when I was doing karate was the bo(staff).

 

I don't think katas are of use for many reasons such as movements done in stances,hands being placed at your side by the belt area,and the types of blocks I believe would never work.

 

This is how I feel,that why practice the way you'd never spar.I know you don't spar same way you do katas,you guys aren't that stupid,but my point is if you're not going to spar like that then what use is the katas.

 

Just my opinion from my years in martial arts.

 

Some of my threads have been closed probably because of people complaining due to jealousy and also misunderstanding the point of my threads.

 

I talk the way,I feel and just want other opinions even if it might sound like I'm insulting others styles,when in fact I don't mean it to sound that way,I'm just curious what others think and why they think katas are such a big deal and how important do they really think it is.Everyone has different opinions.

[MuayThai Fighter]

there's not much difference.

 

I disagree. Usually shadow boxing is not designed to work as a notebook of a master's teachings. Usually a combo in shadow boxing is there for a single reason, it is not there for example for three distinctive interpretations for differing situations. Kata is something you need to interpret with expert guidance, shadow boxing is not interpreted and is usually something you do yourself only to better your skill, not to study it's meanings and interpretations.

 

Good point,you pointed that out well,however I can't completely agree.Because boxing techniques can be used in several different combinations,it's just not interpreted in the same type of way as other martial arts it is true you don't have to study the meanings,because the tehniques are obvious for what they can be used for.

 

Meaning a hook obviously is meant to hit body or head.You also still have to learn different combinations for every technique we learn ,it's just that,that when doing shadow boxing,it doesn't always have to be the exact same combinations you've learnt,but the basics are still the same.Even though we do learn combinations they are not pre-arranged techniques,because we use them in several ways,the way taught and ways we can figure out to use them on our own.

 

It's also true shadow boxing is done on own to better your skill,but you still have to have learnt the basics before you'll know how to do shadow boxing,it's not like you can just walk in the dojo first time and start punching every where with no techniques and call it shadow boxing.

 

That would be like someone coming into a car shop to fix your car and never having fixed a car before or even taken a mechanical course,and call themselves a mechanic.

 

Ya shadow boxing is there for one reason to better ourselves in kicking butt.LOL

 

Not all kickboxing or boxing schools do alot of shadow boxing though.My school rarely does it.We usually are punching and kicking shield,heavy bag,practicing techniques on one another or sparring.We usually do a bit of all of it in each class.

[MuayThai Fighter]

When I did karate we did alot of running,push-ups,sit ups,kicking shields for warm up.

 

Is that what you guys also do?

 

In Pankration,we do a lot of skipping,sit ups(sometimes with weights in our hands, placed inf front of us as you would do when sparring),push ups,leg raises (which I hate doing),punching and kicking shields,leap frog jumps over a partner (if you guys know what that is) plus some more.

 

Do any of you do skipping in your schools?I know when I did karate we never did,it's only now that we often do.

 

When we skipp it's 3,five minute rounds,during rest we do as many situps as we can do in 2 min.then start skipping again.

[ninjanurse]

BTW: how much of the advanced bunkai have you been taught? I'm just asking this to understand on what level of kata understanding are you making this comparison?

 

This is an excellent point! Understanding the bunkai of each kata helps one "internalize" the basics so that it is not just "going throught the motions" as some beginners think. All martial arts practice, whether kata or shadowboxing, has its value...its just a matter of understanding it's place in the scheme of things and utilizing it on the appropriate level, i.e physical or mental. It sounds like a lot of people here have forgotten just how important the basics are!

 

[G95champ]

Thanks MTF

 

Kata brings out more of the inner aspect ot MA. That why we love it. Thats not to say Shadow boxing don't but there is something to be said for doing the same thing Masters done hundreds of years before you.

 

The purpose of the hands to the hip to use full motion. You are right if you tried to spar with your harnds down there you would get killed. However what thats teachign you is to use the full muscle range. Again let me use the bench press ex. If you bench and take the bar to your chest and allt he way back up that is full motion. If you don;t get it to your chest or lock your arms that is half reps. Karate belives that by doing the full motion it makes you quicker and more powerful because your body is used to doing more work.

 

Also remember there is "no first attack" In Karate. So lots of times with we get into a fight our hands are at our belt just because that is a naturla place to have them. So we work the punch from there. Instead of taking a second to raise our hands and then punch.

 

I also trained with a guy who done Thai under a guy from Thailand. I olny worked with him a few months but I do have some insight to how they shadow box as well. In fact I don't work with those guys boxing anymore because a lot of the stuff I helped them with was to MA related.

 

One other point ont he balance thing. I was referign to balance as in workign your right hand as much as your left. Not the ability to shift and move.

[Kyle-san]

Some of my threads have been closed probably because of people complaining due to jealousy and also misunderstanding the point of my threads.

 

Jealous of what?

[SBN Doug]

Some of my threads have been closed probably because of people complaining due to jealousy and also misunderstanding the point of my threads.

 

I talk the way,I feel and just want other opinions even if it might sound like I'm insulting others styles,when in fact I don't mean it to sound that way,I'm just curious what others think and why they think katas are such a big deal and how important do they really think it is.Everyone has different opinions.

 

MTF,

 

I closed your "ballet" thread because it did nothing but start a new thread discussing the same topic, is kata useful. I can assure you that I received no complaints, yet, and that I am in now way "jealous" of anything. There are already two threads full of debate on this topic, and you are more than welcome to continue posting your views in either or both.

 

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2406

 

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5901

 

Threads will also be closed if they get too far off topic, as this one is bordering on doing. Everyone please keep to the topic of how kata and shadow boxing are similar/dissimilar, and keep the "effectiveness" discussion to the afore mentioned topics.

[WhiteBelt]

Note, I have never done any shadow boxing and am going on other's descriptions.

 

I would say that kata are a blueprint for self defense. There are an almost unlimited number of applications to each, but it is up for you, or your teacher, to show you them. Kata are also useful for learning how to move, and make the various stances work for you. Now I'm not suggesting that you stand in any stance for a long time, but that there are times when they would be useful. Finally kata can be a great way to work out if you do them properly, and with speed. The black belts at my dojo usually can finish 20 different kata within 10 minutes.

 

Now as for shadow boxing, I would think that this is an effective training technique for more advanced students. What is the point in letting a beginner practice their own combinations when they don't even know what works? But, for an advanced student it would let them work on what they know. It sounds great for agility, endurance, and possibly technique. Though I would prefer to have a teacher judge the technique. Sounds like I might look into this stuff in the future.

 

So I'd say that kata and shadow boxing are effective for what they're designed to do. You can't say one is better than the other, because they don't do the same thing.

[WhiteBelt]

Do any of you do skipping in your schools?I know when I did karate we never did,it's only now that we often do.

 

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Our school does skipping from time to time, but not often. We do a quick warm-up so that nobody gets injured, and that warm-up gets tougher as you climb the ranks. But, the majority of the work out and conditioning is left to the student to do in their spare time. If you want to be tough, it is up to you not the sensei.

[jiu-jitsu fighter]

kirves you have no clue what you are talking about why does the karate student need guidance to interpret the katas and why is a boxer not capable of expressing himself through his technique, i think you need to think before you type

 

"shadow boxing is not interpreted", you couldn't be more wrong, if tyson, holyfield,de la hoya, all fought the same way , what would happen than, of course they interpret their teachings and transform them into combinations and strategies that work for them, what martial arts experience exactly do you have?