Kyle-san Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 I'm a huge fan of kata, but then again my first art was Shotokan. As it's been said already, if you really understand the applications of the kata's movements and are able to adapt them then they're very beneficial. Otherwise, it's nothing.
MuayThai Fighter Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 in my shotokan karate club we dont really spend alot of time on kata but we still do i herd that some shotokan clubs just do kata and barley anything else. i train with a 7th dan (7th degree black belt) who trained in japan and he says that if you were stuck on an island and knew all katas or most of them and did them day in and day out once you would walk of that island you would be the best fighter there is. What a joke.Katas do sh!t.To be the best fighter you have to sparr and I don't mean B.S point sparring,I mean FULL CONTACT,as that done in muay thai kickboxing. Katas are a waist of time unless you're doing martial arts just for the sake keeping in shape,strengthing legs and improving focus and co-ordination which every art does anyways.If you do katas,you might as well be doing ballet. For self-defense,you have to sparr it is as simple as that.Think about it,in a self-defense situation are you going to go in a stance,punch air and look for scoring points?I doubt it,unless you're an idiot.In a real life situation where you really have to fight,you're going to take the guy to the ground whether it's with a knock out or not. I have one question.Why learn what won't work?
MuayThai Fighter Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 kata is extremely important, it may even be argued that it is more important that sparring. If one can understand the bunkai (application) behaind the kata, and master it's essence, you will never have to fight a battle. It is interesting that several people on this forum seem to believe that you can have an art without kata, but not without sparing. An art can be extremely effective without ever sparring. For example, in okinawa they don't spar. Traditionally none of the okinawan arts invovled sparing that was added due to japanese influence. So I guess this means all those karate masters couldn't defend themselves, and according to zero they were not even martial artists! Another example can be found in china. Take a look at the shoalin monks, they don't spar (they have their own forms simular to katas), but yet they are able to perform increditable feats of strenght, power, and agility, and you would be a fool to say they can't take care of themselves. It is very important to understand the bunkai and application of the movements, or else they will just be a mere dance. The kata can teach you balence, distance, timing, technique (how to effectively punch, kick, and commit numerous strikes), It's breating can keep your mind in focus so that when a situation of severity occurs your mind will be ready, it increases your reation speed and your ability to react to different situations, we must be able to adapt these kata to different situations, it concentrates and focuses your ki giving you highened awareness and prevalence and again it is not merely a dance. It is very important to visualize your oppentants before you and see yourself commiting the attacks upon them. So as you originally said, I do agree that if left on an island and you just praticed katas, you could easily be one of the best fighters there is if you understand what you are doing. So as you can see the lessons found in kata are invaluable, and some cannot even be taught in sparring, if that could ever be possible! if you just do kata your just an artist not a martial artist. No Zero, if you just sparr you are not a martial artist, just a fighter. Katas are not just dances, there is some martial value to them believe it or not. Actually you can do martial arts without kata,no offense but katas are a waist of time. Ya the master in Okinawa don't spar because they're too old too,but the students do. As far as the monks are concerned,you're absolutely right they do have the ability to perform incredible defeats of strength,power and agility,but I got news for you that has to do with inner strength.They can take alot more abuse on their body then anyone else,in fact I have watched a live demonstration of them and it's incredible,but that doesn't mean they can spar and defend themselves.You hear alot about what they can do,but I have never heard about them being able to use that inner strength to their advantage in a fight except in a movie. What they are able to do has nothing to do with their katas it has to do with inner strength that most people will never discover.I agree with fact that they are awesome with their katas,but I am yet to see them win in sparring.I bet anything they'd lose in a real fight among the average person. It's funny you always hear about what they can do,but you never hear about what they can't do,and everyone acts like they're super human or gods just because of what they can do. Besides the average martial artist doesn't train 6 hrs a day ,7 days a week like they do.
MuayThai Fighter Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 It's amazing how much brain wash you guys have gotten from your sensei's. If katas make the best fighters then why is it boxers,muay thai kickboxers,pankration,shooto fighters always win fights. You think Mike Tyson or Hollyfield practice katas?Of course not yet Mike Tyson used to be a very good fighter and Hollyfield is a great fighter too.Neither of them practice kata.
ZR440 Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 Please try to get your history right if you want to discredit any martial art. Buddhist monks of Korea developed their own style of martial art called Bulkyo Mu Sool. Part of what they knew influenced Kuk Sool Won and probably a few other styles. I think we have heard enough regarding katas and traditional MA. Please try to be more positive in any further posts even if you don't agree. A martial artist is supposed to practice understanding and control. I encourage everyone to start practicing. It's happy hour somewhere in the world.
StormKrow Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 While it is true that if you do not understand the meaning behind kata, then it *is* just a dance.... However, kata is a very integral part of most arts, the method is that one can attain the second hand nature necessary in a real encounter, if your body has already been practicing the movement necessary. Furthermore it was necessary in some culutres to hide their systems in the form of a dance, ironicly. From the sayawan of the Filipino arts, to the jenga of Capeoria, the art in all its glory is hidden in that dance. Take Kuntaw for example, (Maharlika Kuntaw)....when the Spaniards occupied the islands, the locals were forbidden to practice martial arts, and thus, hid their system in the form of a dance. Each movement has martial applications. In some ways this works to my advantage in competition. In Kuntaw, one movement leads into the next, almost fluidly such that a judge can't believe their eyes had they not seen the system before, and not understand why it flows the way it does....(and as a result, I've taken numerous 1st place trophies because of this...).... Now I know what you're saying, "What good does a trophy do you in a fight?"...nothing, let's get that right out in the open. Trophies are meaningless, unless you were at the competition to enjoy the comradery, and make new aquaintences to go with the memory of said trophy..(which reminds of a story, I'll tell another day.).... The point is, this. Having been a bouncer, I've had many punches thrown my direction. BECAUSE I bothered to practice The Anyos, (a name for our first set of forms, literally translated, "Short Form"), even when I wasn't training regularly, my body was attuned to the situation, and I was able to deal with it, without ever being struck, and without having to strike a patron. I simply controlled the altercation, and escorted "Mr. Beermuscles" out the door. That's not to say that I didn't make him uncomfortable, but that is to say that Kata, and form practice do have merit to the beginning and continuing student. You may feel free to disagree with me, but my money is on the guy that practices his forms, AND learns to spar....I've handily beaten several opponents who do nothing but enter the sparring events, and it does show when someone practices, and when one doesn't. Perfect example, Allet (forgot his last name), from Lake Elliot, Ont, excellent power striker, excellent fighter, (Tae Keuk Do, I think the art was called...)...anyway, he's notorious on the Can-Am circuit for being able to take a lot of pain and punnishment. He's a big strong, cornfed Candian boy. Great guy, mind you....anyway, Allet and I had never had to face eachother before, we've seen eachother fight, *I* knew I couldn't match him strike for strike. I literally began to do the anyos right there in the ring, and it was an interesting match, none the less. He did get in a shot here and there, but I'd have to say that we were both surprised the number of his strikes I avoided, or countered, and how close in I got to him.... In closing....whatever your art, you have a number of tools at your disposal, it's in how you use them that make you a great martial artist or not..... (just my 2¢) ---You can run.......but why die tired?
Kirves Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 If katas make the best fighters then why is it boxers,muay thai kickboxers,pankration,shooto fighters always win fights. Which fights? Usually when I see or am part of a fight, I don't even know what the other guy has or hasn't studied. How do you know who win most fights? Are there some statistics? Have the police written in their reports what arts the suspects have trained in and who won? Or are you just talking about tournaments? And to someone who said sparring is better than kata, who the ffff said kata is to replace sparring? It's like saying "you shouldn't do heavy bag work, because sparring is better" or "you shouldn't work with focus mits, because the guy who spars will beat you". Only a narrow minded person thinks doing one exercise kicks the other exercise out.
KickChick Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 .... personally, I believe 13 previous pages in a thread "Kata is a Waste of Time" .... is plenty discussion. http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2406 This thread should have been closed 2 pages ago! (I mean after all that thread could have been 16 pages now!! )
Mayur Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 Hmm, MTfighter, ever try Shaolin? It has a lot of katas And [excuse me] shaolin fighters can kick MTfighter's a$$ easily No seriously I mean that katas are not necessarry, but they can be a useful tool PS - MTfighter do you hit the groin when sparring? |Mayur|
Kyle-san Posted February 18, 2003 Posted February 18, 2003 What a joke.Katas do *.To be the best fighter you have to sparr and I don't mean B.S point sparring,I mean FULL CONTACT,as that done in muay thai kickboxing. Yeah, I'd love to see someone in a Jujutsu dojo (Japanese, Brazillian, it doesn't matter) spar full contact. There'd be no students left without broken limbs by the end of the night.
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