COmbat/doormen/real street defence

[jeffin]

I don't regularly buy them but I was bored so I picked up a copy of COMBAT. I thought I'd start a discussion about one of the articles in which Tony Agostini expresses his distaste for people of geoff thompsons ilk. (I've left chunks out)

 

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Combat; Following on from last month you mentioned the pre emptive strike. A whole industry has built up around the concept of 'real' street defence but you feel that much of it is out of date. Why?

 

TA; ....Based upon my experiences in various clubs and places.....I've read a lot of the old stories and I'm a pro in the industry. I don't write books and don't brag about stories as amusing as they might be....I would rather educate people in the industry so they don't get hurt. I can't relate to those stories and the nearest I can relate is in the later years of school up until I was eighteen.

 

Combat; Has society really changed so much and become so vicious?

 

TA; Without a doubt. A lot of the doormen books I read involve stuff like, "Lets go outside and have a punch up" or "he said this so I knocked him out" We did this when I was at school, the whole point of getting into weapons training was the sheer amount of knives being produced. The situation I've seen escalate over the last eight to ten years has been with regard to drugs and I don't know if the people who write these articles really understand the problems we have in certain areas of london. #not just london-pete# Its kids, teenagers and they are taking and selling drugs and coming out with weapons. There is no way they can run their outfits without some kind of weapons.

 

In the clubs its a nightmare to take out someone dealing drugs. You simply don't rush in there is a lengthy process to establish everyone in the team. Theres a runner/dealer/banker and minders and they don't care if they get caught because its there job. We are walking on thin ice because these people have got the ammunition to carry out there threats, they could take us out from a hundred yards away, it is this sort of thing the story telling doormen don't understand. I would love it to be like 'outside for a quick fight'

 

Its not like that anymore, shooters crossbows I was even offered a schmoolie. An anti aircraft weapon that could take out the door and half the club for twenty quid each. the guy demostrated it for me on the hackney marshes.

 

In terms of reaction to a crime or percieved slight or injury or lack of respect the levels of violence described are completely out of context. It has been noted in streetcrime that kids are being held at gunpoint for there mobile phones. People have come from eastern europe that have a different mentality, in terms of 'acceptable violence' they come over on false passports how do I know. A lot of them come on door courses and I ask them for their name and adress and theyve got the cheek to take out their passport to check how to spell their name. Running with that is the gang mentality that these people are quite happy to shoot stab or wound you because a criminal conviction is like a medal of honour.

 

combat; And everyone hates doormen.

 

AG; Thats the worst thing.....trying to promote it as a professional industry.....can pick up a lot of good attributes. It has such a tarnished reputation, prior to 1991 when licensing came in doormen were known as bouncers - and thats when all the stories relate to. When some one says no I am not going to leave and gets knocked out. That wouldn't work now, do you realise how much compensation goes out in a civil litigation. I need consent to search someone without consent, if i touch someone without consent its assault. I teach criminal law to door supervisors and we stay within the laws of reasonable force. Its not about knocking someone out if the look at you wrong or waiting for them to hit first its about maintaing balance.

 

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Brings up a few good points though it is a little unclear. I have long been skeptical of finding anything useful in the real self defence books after reading geoff thompsons "pressure testing the martial arts". What is everyones opinions?

 

(Personally I do not like geoff thompson and his ilk however I do respect that some are talented writers)

 

pete,

[BonnyBoy]

Hmm, I quite like Geoff Thompson's stuff, and I don't think he's the macho chest thumping bouncer that the article made him out to be.

[KickChick]

I have enjoyed his SD articles too ..... You can read more here

 

http://www.geoffthompson.com/articles/articles.htm

 

You can also read "the Formula" (online book) http://www.geoffthompson.com/formula/the_formula.htm .... (here lies the true Mr. Thompson I believe)

[iolair]

I read Geoff Thompson's stuff, and agree with a lot of it and learnt a lot from it, particularly about the effectiveness of different types of art and technique in real situations.

 

However, the idea of the pre-emptive strike very much goes against the grain for me. I don't have Geoff's experience of violence, but I'd hesitate to say that violence was inevitable at any time before the attacker makes his move.

 

So, although in responding rather than attacking first I'd lose the element of surprise, I think I'd likely wait... to make the most of my chance of survival in these situations a couple of basic blocks (and combinations that follow these up) are a large part of my daily training. And I can do them very quickly with no conscious thought time at all (this has been pressure tested). The threee times this has happened, the person "trying their luck" has been so gobsmacked by the speed of the block, they've apparently decided I'm a force to be reckoned with and backed down without any counter attack from my side. I only practice two blocks (and normally only use one of them), but I make sure that they are very, very strong (my MOST practiced technique) and they've served me well.

 

That said, I'll always try and talk someone down first, and as a teacher of 11-18 year olds I get a lot of practice at calming people down this way!

[jeffin]

Some of his first stuff was good.

 

But then he writes books on wrestling techniques etc. after only studying for 6 months, he also gives a trolls overview of martial arts. Karate is to rigid kung fu is to flowery - 19 pages for 12 quid.

 

THe point which I picked up on in the article was about the difference in violence between ten years ago and now. Fights are damn dangerous round england now, especially around london glasgow birmingham. The advice and stories that some of these guys tell aren't relevant now.

 

And well I'm not against selling out (I plan to at the first given oppertunity) but these guys blatently have.

 

pete,

[Kirves]

I'd hesitate to say that violence was inevitable at any time before the attacker makes his move.

 

Well, AFAIK the idea is not to punch the guy totally out of the blue, he is making his move, you just don't know what it is. If three guys are cornering you and it is very obvious what they have on their mind, your best bet is not to stand there waiting "who's going to attack first". You'll be toast if you try that. It is obvious what they are up to, their "first move" is already the fact that they corner and threaten you. When they get close enough, you may be wise to drop the first one, "by surprise". If the guy's smart, he won't even be surprised, but usually he will because he'll be expecting you to act like a sheep not a lion.

[iolair]

If three guys are cornering you and it is very obvious what they have on their mind, your best bet is not to stand there waiting "who's going to attack first".

When I wrote my first reply, I had in mind the typical sort of situation from Geoff Thompson's "on the door" book, when someone - usually an individual - is being verbally aggressive and wants a fight as some kind of ego trip. This is pretty similar to the situations I encounter in school as well. I've also managed to talk down someone VERY aggressive who was clearly under the effects of drugs - so you can manage this with pretty much anyone "just" being aggressive. It's important to be level headed and appear confident while you do this in order for it to work.

 

However, if the aggressor appears to be a criminal type and you can tell from their attitude that their intention is definitely to steal or harm, then its a different kettle of fish altogether. That said, with a single attacker, I still think they could usually be talked out of it - but the approach here would be to persuade them that I am too dangerous to try and deal with single handed. This approach works well for me as I appear athletic and am 190cm tall - though it probably wouldn't work for a 160cm girl!

 

This would be more difficult with multiple criminals who seemed to genuinely want to harm me, and this would be the case I would most likely make the first physical attack.