Elements of Proper Self-defense Training

[JerryLove]

I don't believe there are any pure BJJ people winning the UFC any longer. I don't believe one has for some time. I will admit I stopped following the fights some time ago... They got too many rules to be great learning tools and are generally not "enjoyable" to watch.

 

I would say that people who rely on any one-or-two things, be it eye attacks or a skill at the guard, are setting themselves up for a fall.

 

I would say that anyone who would say that an eye gouge isn't an "actual functioning technique" is trying to make up for something.

 

I think youhave a funny definition of "traditional"; I think it is a blanket word you use in a derogitory manner. I think you straw-man the basic tennant of a "traditional" art and bash at it.

 

I think if your fight during Karate was using the techniques you learned while in karate than your statement:

 

"I didn't fight the way i trained at all" - Feb 11, 2003 3:21 pm

 

Was a lie.

 

I think a lot of schools teach horribly. I think that the "McDojo" problem is a real one. I don't think it's particularly confined to "traditional" or "non-traditional" arts. I think that boxers (very non-traditional) got killed in early UFCs just as fast as Karate people.

 

I think the UFC taught us many thing. one big thing it taught us was that many, many schools ignored the ground-game far too much and were very vunerable to basic wrestling (under the UFC conditions). I think it's a lesson everyone should learn.

 

I think it did also illustrate the problems with improper training.

and don't insult royce, when was the last time you saw a silat guy step into the ring , oh ya ,never!!

 

I did not insult him. Why do you seem so eager to come to his defence. Since you have brought up tone and implication, your tone is one of someone who'se pride is on the line. You post as though you feel you are superior to everone else, and that you have some "magic secret" you feel no one else has caught on to.

 

This is exactly the pright that came before the distruction of the arts and schools you attack. They became so convinced that their way was right, that they lost sight of what they were supposed to be accomplishing in the first place. Over-specialization and pride caused that fall, and it's exactly the road you seem to want to take.

 

And for the record, it was you, not I, that brought Royce's fight history to the floor. Why try to cahnge the focus as soon as your point is called into question?

[jiu-jitsu fighter]

plz stop using all these big words like derogitory and tennant and what the **** is that straw man comment suppose to mean

 

you said royce hasn't been winning, wonder why?

 

im no mcdojo'ist i train in the techniques i find effective and only those, unlike alot of ma's that don't even know why they do half the things they do.

 

i have proof of these mcdojos and i have every right to be angry with them, my cousin is 8 and has just received his black belt in tkd , these traditionalists that believe that they can only use their techniques on the street are not only fooling others but are fooling themselves as well.

 

i have a mgic secret that noone has caught onto, its that people should not be handing out their money so that after 3 years of yelling kiai and kicking the air they can receive a bb.

[SaiFightsMS]

Keep the discussion civil or the thread will be closed.

 

A tenet is an opinion or a belief. And derogatory means to put something down. Sometimes it pays to know how to use a dictionary.

[omnifinite]

How are "traditional" and "McDojo" synonymous? If a McDojo doesn't know why it does the techniques it does and hasn't held on to any of what made the art powerful when it was originally used, it is being supremely UNtraditional.

 

Traditionalists are just as upset with those schools as you are.

[JerryLove]

A Straw Man Argument is a statement you make if you want to more easily attack an opposing position. You intentionally make a silly caricature of that position, or an outright lie regarding it, one that no one would believe, knock down that silly, unrealistic caricature, and then proclaim that the original version of the argument has been demolished. “evolution is a religion because evolutionists worship Darwin”.

 

I'm sorry, I presuemd someone on a discussion board would be familiar with logical fallacies. I'll try to be more clear.

you said royce hasn't been winning, wonder why?

 

Yes, right after you brought him to the table by saying "this is why back in the old ufc ,royce destroyed the traditionalists, because they were using what they thought would work instead of what actually works"

 

the problem here is that you assert that "loosing" equated to some sort of inherent unrealisticness of system. If this is true, then later losses by Royce would prove that what he was doing was unrealistic.

 

Since I don't believe that you hold Royce's art to be unrealisitic, I must wonder how you can reach the conclusion you proported.

im no mcdojo'ist i train in the techniques i find effective and only those, unlike alot of ma's that don't even know why they do half the things they do.

I don't believe I claimed that you were. Though, I would assert that most people at McDojo's also hold that they train in the techniques they find effective.

 

Also remember, it was not poor schools you attacked, it was arts. You attacked mcdojos, and "traditional" arts, and asserted the superioirity of a small group of arts (yours) over all others. You attacked everyone that ever lost to Royce (calling their arts "unrealistic").

 

One must winder if, in a UFC, you could beat Royce, or weather some oter person would have to call your practice "unrealistic" by the measure you hold up other styles to.

i have proof of these mcdojos and i have every right to be angry with them, my cousin is 8 and has just received his black belt in tkd , these traditionalists that believe that they can only use their techniques on the street are not only fooling others but are fooling themselves as well.

An excellent example of your prejudicial language (another logical fallacy, look it up); You start with a "McDojo rant on a poor school, but then equivocate to "traditionalists", as if there were not children's boxgin, wrestling, or Judo schools.

 

Somewhere in there, there is a valid argument (that many people are deluding themselves by believing they have effective training when they do not). But you full it with so much hype, bluster, misdorected attacks, and ego, that it does not come through.

i i have a mgic secret that noone has caught onto, its that people should not be handing out their money so that after 3 years of yelling kiai and kicking the air they can receive a bb.

And here I though a great deal of people were aware of that.

 

OTOH, Your average 8-year-old is not shoved into a martial art to evicerate other 8-year-olds. So perhaps "combat ability" is not the sole reason one takes martial arts?

 

In fact, despite being in a combat-oriented school, my first line of defence is my sidearm. My second is a blade. I would say anyone who takes martial arts for "self defence" and has not gotten a CCW permet (if available) and focused on drawing, marksmanship, and knife combat, is wasting their money on self-defence.

[Joe Hardwick]

The problem that occurs in martial arts is that we stereotype artists by what they study as an art. If you say you practice a martial sport (BJJ, MT, KB, etc) then it can be assumed you spend all your time on the ground rolling and never deal with strikes and eye gauges. Conversely, if you study a reality based self-defense system (Senshido, Combative Solutions, Krav Maga, Contemporary Fighting Arts, etc) then you never practice against a resisiting opponent and only practice eye gauging a willing opponent. I will not even go into the stereotyping that occurs to Traditional Arts.

 

The point of my post is that the way you train for self-defense is more important than the art you study. If you spend hours practicing complex moves whether they are sport based or traditional based and NEVER against a resisting opponent then your ability to use it in actual combat will be severely reduced because it is not functional. Furthermore, you will believe certain techniqes will work when in reality they won't. Finally, you will not have an understanding of psychology, the adrenaline dump and fight/flight response if you do not use scenario training.

 

Ultimately, I feel that these 3 training methods I have mentioned are more important to understanding the reality of a violent encounter than what art you study.

[jiu-jitsu fighter]

that comment on wating your time when you should also be learning how to use a gun and knife etc...

 

im in the canadian army reserves , so i can draw and shoot a gun and i can handle a knife

[JerryLove]

Though I disagree that your statement "I am in the reserves" supports your implied claim "I have the appropriate armed skills for self-defence", that's hardly at issue.

 

Of far more interest to me is that I made a statement which in no was was inteded to imply you had or did not have said skills. And yet, your first reactor was to persume that it was a criticism directed directly at you. The tone in every one of your posts on this thread (that I can think of) has been (as I pointed out) one of a bruised ego.

 

I'm not attacking your art, and I have not been. With the exception of the amature-psycology on your use of ego in these conversations, I have not been making direct comments about you either. What I have been doing is attempting to discuss your posts, and your arguments.

 

My god man, look at your last post. The only thing you felt like commenting on was yourself.

 

I am in the millitary.

 

I can draw a firearm.

 

I never claimed that you could not. I make a statement about the porported purpose of any training and where I felt focus should lie if one was looking for "self defense".

 

BTW, how did you make it through basic calling a firearm a "gun"? Or is does the Canadian millitary not have the burr up their butt that the US millitary has about calling a rifle or sidearm a "gun"?

[Kensai]

"These traditionalists that believe that they can only use their techniques on the street are not only fooling others but are fooling themselves as well."

 

I cant quite believe I am reading this, and then you have the gaul to ask people to stop being derogitory to you?

 

Hmm........

 

As far as a 8 year old BB goes, thats just wrong. But not all traditional styles are like that. We have had this conversation before JJ fighter and I thought you started to understand what we(traditionalists) are going on about. But obviously not.

[monkeygirl]

Please remember the original intent of this thread: to be an exchange of ideas and training, NOT to bash each other's styles or the other members of this forum. Let's refrain from semantics and continue with the real purpose of this particular discussion: What do you think are the crucial elements of self-defense? What techniques/attitudes need to be taught in a self-defense course/program?

 

If this thread doesn't get back on track (or at least civil), it WILL be locked, as Sai said.