I think that I've finally come to understand and appreciate

[ak74auto]

Katas . Let me start by saying that I am not a BB or Red sash in any martial arts form . I have dabbled in several styles of martial arts , and freestyle , collegiate , some greco , and some MA .

 

Now that we have that out of the way. Let's get on with the explanation. I had been taught by my dad who is an ex golden gloves boxer , football player , police officer , etc... and my uncle who is a BB in judo and Jujitsu that I should stay far away from katas , because they do not work and will force me to fight inside the confines of whatever style I practiced, so I did .

 

I was thinking about expanding my skills , especially in the weak areas , so I started thinking about philipino fighting , muay thai , karate , and anything else that would help me to kick better , I also started thinking an upcoming jujitsu / wrestling practice when it hit me like a ton of bricks . KARATE AND WRESTLING IS THE SAME , I mean they both teach a certain series of moves for defense or offense , so isn't that katas of a sort ?

[jiu-jitsu fighter]

um no! katas and forms are pre-arranged series of techniques,

[Pacificshore]

ak74auto:

 

I see where your train of thought went!!! If you look at kata as a series of offensive/defensive moves, or vice versa then the same principle would apply to wrestling. The difference is that in wrestling your usually working with a partner on each series of moves, and when practicing kata, it is usually done by yourself. It is not until you start to learn the "bunkai" or meaning of the moves within a kata that you may work with a uki(partner) in order to understand what each move signifies in regards to a defensive or offensive move. Even after you understand the "bunkai" you would still work on the kata by yourself.

 

Many folks have their beliefs in the value or non-value of kata training, and that okay. In my opinion, I happen to believe kata training teachs many things. For example: focus, balance, speed, power, peaceful calm mind, and the list can go on forever. However, do I believe that kata training is practical for fighting purposes or learning how to fight, not necessarily. There are so many factors to consider when it comes down to hitting a moving target, or one that hits back. Same would apply to all the self defense techniques that one can learn, or the number of wrestling moves one person can make on another. Once you add all those unknown elements and such then things begin to change and drastically at that.

 

I hope I'm not too off target with your post, but I do see where your thoughts on this matter was going. Hopefully this is of some use to you.

[ak74auto]

YOu took the words right out of my mouth. By the way , we do shadow drills , so we do work alone too.

 

My uncle is also a green belt ( I think ) in tae kwon do ,

 

I should have mentioned this earlier , but didn't .

[Kirves]

um no! katas and forms are pre-arranged series of techniques,

 

Um, no. Kata is a notebook of fighting techniques. It is just like any notebook, if you only read it, it won't help you one iota. If you read stuff from it, then train that stuff, you get the results it was meant for.

[Kensai]

Amen Kirves

 

Nothing in Karate is "pre-arranged". There is no point pre arranging anything. Only useless usually "western" sensei teach kata as a series. Its not, its merely a reference for hundreds of techniques. The reason that Kata excist in the first place, is because each individual move could not be written down, due to the fact that the ruling Samurai did not want the people of the Ryukyu (Okinawa) to practice Karate (well at that time it was called Kempo).

[monkeygirl]

I agree with PacificShore: kata can be a useful training tool for balance, focus, etc.

 

They cannot be used alone, because then you're just doing some sort of aerobic exercise. In order to reach maximum effectiveness in your training, you must have at least SOME sparring. Kata alone will not cut it.

 

I don't understand this "notebook" analogy everyone seems to keep using for kata. Kata are a prearranged series of techniques. This doesn't mean that every school and style do the same kata with the same moves, each one is different. However, each student of that school/style will be required to do it in the same way, in the same sequence. Can somebody please explain the notebook analogy, and how it contradicts my understanding of kata?

[Kyle-san]

I don't understand this "notebook" analogy everyone seems to keep using for kata. Kata are a prearranged series of techniques. This doesn't mean that every school and style do the same kata with the same moves, each one is different. However, each student of that school/style will be required to do it in the same way, in the same sequence. Can somebody please explain the notebook analogy, and how it contradicts my understanding of kata?

 

It's like saying a kata is a notebook filled with the moves that you learn in an art. If you just go through the motions (read the notebook) you don't gain anything out of it. However, if you dig deeper than that and look at the possible applications and apply them outside the set form (reading, analyzing, understanding the notebook) then you have a positive result. A slightly incorrect analogy since every style doesn't use kata and not all moves are used in them.

 

Kata aren't just prearanged sets of techniques, they're a guide to moves and possible applications. If you can't see past that and learn to adapt... how much of your style can you really understand?

[Kirves]

I don't understand this "notebook" analogy everyone seems to keep using for kata.

 

Nowadays, you get to learn lots of kata. But in old days, one teacher usually taught only few kata. Some just one. The creator of the kata, designed the kata as a memorizing tool that would contain all the self defence techniques and tactics he wanted to know. Remember, not everyone 300 years ago knew how to read or write, and martial arts in some areas and ages were outlawed anyway. So they found a nice way to "publish" their methods of fighting.

 

How do you use this notebook/kata? Just as you would any other notebook on fighting techniques. I have noticed that not so many karateka do this, but when I studied JKD actively, it was normal that whenever we went to a seminar or training camp, we made notes. We all had notebooks with us and wrote down stuff and techniques that we learned there. Remember, Bruce Lee's famous book "Tao Of Jeet Kune Do" is nothing but a collection of his notes. Then, when we went back to our own JKD clubs, we would continue practising the stuff we learned at the seminars and camps. We soon noticed, that unless you write the stuff down, you're going to forget lots of stuff. So we wrote everything valuable down during breaks.

 

Kata is a collection of the notes of the master who created it. You need the hands-on instruction to interpret it, but you aren't training the techniques when you are just performing the kata. That's like you were just browsing a written notebook by the master. You must go to a page in the notebook (a part in the kata), read the page (study the part of the kata) and then train the methods (drill the stuff with your training partner).

 

If you are only taught to perform the stuff alone, but never go through the applications, you are not learning the stuff, you are just "reading the notes", without anyone explaining what they actually mean. In traditional Okinawan systems, the bunkai, or ti-chi-ki, or application training that is done in live-action-with-partner constitutes over half of the training. If you find yourself doing more of the kata alone than it's applications on a live partner, then you should find another teacher. Your's is just showing you the notes, when you might actually want to learn how to fight with the techniques described in the notes.

 

Many people who have learned 20 katas but have only focused on their solo performance and rarely have trained in their applications, usually are shocked to find what kinds of techniques have been "written" in the most basic types of kata. For example, a normal kata has hundreds of self defence methods, consisting of a few dozen throws, some locks, some chokeholds, escapes, reversals, and so on. Some of the "beginner" kata just contain a few dozen such moves, but that's plenty too if you only thought you were "shadow boxing some blocks and punches".

 

I recommend you read this article:

 

http://www.karate.org.yu/sensei_dan_smith_letter1.htm

 

And you may want to continue the following letters (links at the end of page).

[monkeygirl]

 

I get it now! Very interesting. Thanks for the explanation!