Lying about Belt Ranks

[Zaine]

On 9/24/2025 at 11:00 PM, KarateKen said:

Agreed.  Here is maybe a better question.  If a student is a BB in Karate and a green belt in TKD, and are competing in a TKD tournament, what belt rank is appropriate for the student to wear? 

I do think that there is some nuance here. If the TKD tournament restricted poomsae (kata) to only TKD forms, then I can see an argument being made that the black belt should be allowed to compete in a lower rank for the poomsae section. However, personally I disagree with the argument as presented. A black belt in another system will, all things being equal, have much more technical prowess over their poomsae than someone at the same level. In this case, all roads, regardless of merit, lead to the competitor only competing in the BB divisions.

[Furinkazan]

But why adjust for rank in competition at tournaments, and not at the school when a student with prior experience in another striking art/style signs up?  Why start them at white belt when you know they can compete at the brown belt level?  I don't think they not knowing your system's kata (or versions thereof) is valid.  They have prior experience with kata, they know all of the stances, they know how to execute with proper kime/chinkuchi, etc.  So you can feed them new katas faster than students with no prior martial arts training, ensuring that they're up to speed with a more appropriate belt ranking.  Trying to make adjustments at tournaments just seems way too complicated and causes too many unresolvable problems between schools in the area.

Edited Monday at 01:29 PM by Furinkazan

[Zaine]

In schools that teach the same style, especially when those schools are linked by organization, I think the argument for maintaining previous rank is perfectly valid. I see no reason why one student who does JKA Shotokan should not maintain their rank when joining another JKA Shotokan school to further their education. Of course, I would expect that they be required to prove their skill level in whatever way is appropriate. Usually, attending a few classes with the new dojo gives the instructors all the information they need on whether the student is telling the truth about their previous rank. Outside of these situations, however, I see no reason that any instructor of a different system should be expected to agree to allow someone transfer their rank to a new system. I have a Nidan in Matsumura-Seito Shorin Ryu, but when I began Shobayashi Ryu I took a white belt. I did this because I am not a Nidan, or even a Shodan, in Shobayashi Ryu. I have a command of the basics and the kata were easy for me to adapt to despite the differences. However, the belt and rank for Shobayashi represents my education in Shobayashi. It didn't take away my training in Matsumura-Seito, nor did I get partnered with people far below my skill level when needed. Rank is merely a useful tool for instructors and students to gauge where they are at in a curriculum. Perhaps my 7th kyu belt wasn't an accurate representation of my overall skill level, but it was an accurate representation of what I was currently learning in Shobayashi. In turn, my ability to assimilate into Shobayashi at a rapid pace because of my previous training was recognized in that I was tested more frequently with time requirements waved when necessary. In the end, rank matters a lot more to those who have not been in martial arts long. Practice long enough, and you begin to realize that rank is merely a representation of understanding within a particular system. You wouldn't, as a karate black belt, walk into a BJJ gym demanding to be recognized as a black belt. The skill set is different. Wearing a "lower" rank is not a big deal and perhaps it takes reaching black belt to understand that, but it comes to all with time.

I'm also not sure what you're getting at when you say that it complicates things or creates unresolved problems between schools to compete at your highest rank. It has never been an issue at tournaments that I have attended. When I go to tournaments, I am not representing the school, but my own training. Could you expand on what issues you see being created here?

[Furinkazan]

4 hours ago, Zaine said:

In schools that teach the same style, especially when those schools are linked by organization, I think the argument for maintaining previous rank is perfectly valid. I see no reason why one student who does JKA Shotokan should not maintain their rank when joining another JKA Shotokan school to further their education. Of course, I would expect that they be required to prove their skill level in whatever way is appropriate. Usually, attending a few classes with the new dojo gives the instructors all the information they need on whether the student is telling the truth about their previous rank. Outside of these situations, however, I see no reason that any instructor of a different system should be expected to agree to allow someone transfer their rank to a new system.

The argument isn't for them to "transfer rank."  The argument is to evaluate the new student where they are and place them accordingly.

4 hours ago, Zaine said:

I have a Nidan in Matsumura-Seito Shorin Ryu, but when I began Shobayashi Ryu I took a white belt. I did this because I am not a Nidan, or even a Shodan, in Shobayashi Ryu. I have a command of the basics and the kata were easy for me to adapt to despite the differences. However, the belt and rank for Shobayashi represents my education in Shobayashi. It didn't take away my training in Matsumura-Seito, nor did I get partnered with people far below my skill level when needed.

Sure, you weren't a nidan or shodan in Shobayashi-ryu.  But were you really a white belt, either?  Even by Shobayashi-ryu standards?  

4 hours ago, Zaine said:

Rank is merely a useful tool for instructors and students to gauge where they are at in a curriculum. Perhaps my 7th kyu belt wasn't an accurate representation of my overall skill level, but it was an accurate representation of what I was currently learning in Shobayashi. In turn, my ability to assimilate into Shobayashi at a rapid pace because of my previous training was recognized in that I was tested more frequently with time requirements waved when necessary.

Well, they did something for you.

4 hours ago, Zaine said:

In the end, rank matters a lot more to those who have not been in martial arts long. Practice long enough, and you begin to realize that rank is merely a representation of understanding within a particular system. You wouldn't, as a karate black belt, walk into a BJJ gym demanding to be recognized as a black belt. The skill set is different. Wearing a "lower" rank is not a big deal and perhaps it takes reaching black belt to understand that, but it comes to all with time.

I actually happen to be in that scenario.  I'm an ISKF shodan and I'm also a white belt in BJJ.  I know of no one in BJJ with a black belt in karate or taekwondo who thought they were going start at anything higher than white belt.

What I have seen is people with prior wrestling background get promoted to blue belt after a short time of being evaluated by the instructor.  Someone else mentioned earlier in the thread that some BJJ schools will automatically place a judo black belt at blue belt.

4 hours ago, Zaine said:

I'm also not sure what you're getting at when you say that it complicates things or creates unresolved problems between schools to compete at your highest rank. It has never been an issue at tournaments that I have attended. When I go to tournaments, I am not representing the school, but my own training. Could you expand on what issues you see being created here?

It all makes sense now, as I thought we were speaking in the context of representing schools.

However, I never said anything about "transferring rank."  There's a huge difference between that and evaluating new students with prior training to determine placement.  I was discussing the latter.

The motive for what I was saying was not to satiate egos, but to create an environment that fosters training that is both safe and productive.  If you're a nidan from one branch of Shorin-ryu, and you're wearing a white belt in another branch, it's really not helping you for a brown belt to go easy on you when sparring because you're a "white belt."

Edited Monday at 09:53 PM by Furinkazan

[DarthPenguin]

Is an interesting one, as i can see both of your points. My view is that if you are in the same style, from a valid school then you keep your belt e.g. i am under the kugb in the UK, if i moved to JKA, JSKA, JKS etc. i would expect to be exactly the same rank as they are all Shotokan. Every person i know who has done this has kept their belt - the potentially giving up rank in the same style seems to be a USA thing (i say this as someone who did actually give up their rank in Shotokan and start again from white belt as i had been away from it for an extremely long time!).

With rank in another style with transferable skills then you are still a white belt in the new style, though i found it bad form not to tell people you had previous training (it is usually pretty obvious to everyone anyway). I have trained in a few styles over the years and when i was in that situation i usually just told someone i am Rank X in this style which has crossover of Y and then i learnt the syllabus as a white belt but usually did any kumite/sparring with the more experienced people. Competition was fair game as tbh nowadays a lot of people have cross training anyway!

For BJJ at my school Judo BB start at white too and they usually take a year or so to grade to Blue (obviously varies depending on the individual). Everyone knows who they are and people just roll with them mroe normally than they would with a fresh white belt. Conversely when i started to add in judo i told them i train BJJ (albeit i am not the best!) and it means that for Newaza i typically go with the Brown / Black belts and for Tachiwaza i stay with grade or the higher ranks are gentle. If i was to enter competition i would enter at my judo rank. I had a judo friend who was a bit put out as at the time he was a Judo Brown and only needed 10pts or so for Shodan and when he entered a BJJ comp he had to enter at White - i also remember a Judo 6th Dan several years ago who was made to enter at Blue!

[Furinkazan]

3 hours ago, DarthPenguin said:

Is an interesting one, as i can see both of your points. My view is that if you are in the same style, from a valid school then you keep your belt e.g. i am under the kugb in the UK, if i moved to JKA, JSKA, JKS etc. i would expect to be exactly the same rank as they are all Shotokan. Every person i know who has done this has kept their belt -

To my knowledge, most Shotokan organizations cap automatic transferability at yondan and will then review and evaluate the transferee for promotion to grades above that after transfer.

3 hours ago, DarthPenguin said:

the potentially giving up rank in the same style seems to be a USA thing (i say this as someone who did actually give up their rank in Shotokan and start again from white belt as i had been away from it for an extremely long time!).

I can agree with that.  We're a culture of having to prove oneself and earn every little thing, even in situations where it's completely unwarranted.

On the flip side, I can't see this happening in Shotokan unless you were transferring to or from an independent school.  ISKF is the largest organization in the US, and I really can't see them making you start over - or making you to take a demotion at all, especially considering that you're of Enoeda sensei's lineage.  I think that some of the smaller independant schools may require all black belts to teach, and having a new black belt just waltz in like that might "upset the order."

[DarthPenguin]

3 hours ago, Furinkazan said:

To my knowledge, most Shotokan organizations cap automatic transferability at yondan and will then review and evaluate the transferee for promotion to grades above that after transfer.

Yeah thats true - i hadn't factored in senior grades!

 

3 hours ago, Furinkazan said:

On the flip side, I can't see this happening in Shotokan unless you were transferring to or from an independent school.  ISKF is the largest organization in the US, and I really can't see them making you start over - or making you to take a demotion at all, especially considering that you're of Enoeda sensei's lineage.  I think that some of the smaller independant schools may require all black belts to teach, and having a new black belt just waltz in like that might "upset the order."

Yeah i think it is a personal choice. Originally i had graded under Kawazoe Sensei but i had left karate 25+ years ago (though have trained in other styles in the interim). I thought it was appropriate to return as a white belt since in my view it would take multiple years to regain skills to an appropriate level to match belt, so why not get regraded instead over that time period then would be no doubt i was at whatever my current belt level was skill wise: am now grading under Sensei F Brennan so am pretty sure that one will hold up in most places too - back to 1st kyu now and hoping to sit Shodan under him early next year

[sensei8]

I’m still of the mindset that those of multiple rankings should bring that attention to the tournaments Arbitrator for integrity sake. A Arbitrator worth their salt will make the correct and appropriate decision.

Imho!!

[sensei8]

22 hours ago, DarthPenguin said:

On 12/9/2025 at 6:04 AM, Furinkazan said:

To my knowledge, most Shotokan organizations cap automatic transferability at yondan and will then review and evaluate the transferee for promotion to grades above that after transfer.

Yeah thats true - i hadn't factored in senior grades

We’re talking about lying about rank whenever competing in tournaments.

My last tournament, Bakersfield Open, was 30 years ago where I garnered 4 Grand Championships and 1 2nd place; I was at that time a Nanadan.

I was only allowed to compete because that tournament had a Masters Division. My 4 Grand Championships were in Kata, Open Kata, Weapons Kata, and Open Weapons Kata. My 2nd place was in the Masters Kumite Division which was open for 5th Dan’s and above.

In each and every Kata Division I entered, I was the most Senior ranked competitor whereas most other competitors were of no rank higher than Sandan. 

During that time I was the chosen Arbitrator for most all Open tournaments in that region. So, it was of no surprise when I approached the Arbitrator of the Bakersfield Open to see  if I could enter, and when I received the Arbitrator’s green light I signed up for everything I could.

I bring this up because 30 years ago it was nearly unheard of for a Senior rank of my status to enter open tournaments to compete; to Arbitrate, yes, to compete, no. I didn’t lie about my rank, of which I could’ve, but that never ever was something that I’d even consider; my overly high sensitivity regarding integrity would never ever allow me to do that in the first place.

Allen Tackett, a Nanadan under Master Toma of the Siedo Organization, and a friend of mine back then, who is now a Kudan, vouched for me with both that selected Arbitrator and the Bakersfield Open Committee beforehand without my knowledge. It was Allen that encouraged me to compete in that tournament; I did feel uneasy to do so due to I didn’t feel it was appropriate in general.

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by sensei8