self-defense distance…

[Spartacus Maximus]

It might be necessary to have a specific sub-forum to discuss self-defense topics…But since this topic doesn’t seem to fit anywhere else, General is probably where it must go.

At what point would one be justified in using force against a physically and verbally threatening, aggressive person?

using force=any action requiring physical contact: strike, throw, lock etc..

To narrow the discussion down a bit, consider it in this context:

The aggressor is physically threatening. He has already come into your personal space. He hasn’t touched you, yet he is in your face aggressively pointing/poking his finger.

Lastly, this hypothetical is in a weapon-restricted context. Blades and firearms are highly regulated and illegal to carry without legitimate reason. The aggressor might be armed, but you are far more likely to encounter a pointy/cutting object. 

In this situation, at what point would you be legally(where you live) justified in using physical force(any physical contact)? 

Are any responses more appropriate than others? Perhaps a joint-lock is a better option than a throw or a strike, for example..

thanks for reading, looking forward to reading  everyone’s input 

[crash]

man, so many variables come into play here. ( do you know the person or is it a stranger?..etc....)... but to just keep it simple, assuming a stranger,..if he is verbally threatening, physically threatening, and getting in your personal space he should never be allowed to lift his hands. as far as the level, it would again depend on the situation.  the reason for the aggressive behavior, etc..... if you dont know the reason then the soft approach of trying to "hold" or "lock" him up is not my first choice. (if a stanger he may have friends watching you arent aware of, and if they see him "losing" may just try to help)..ending the conflict fast and hard would be best. not letting someone get close enough is key in any situation. always being aware of your surroundings and alert to those nearby. verbally threatening along with any contact or aggressive movements can justify self protection. but as stated many variables to consider and each situation can be drastically different from the next.....

[bushido_man96]

If someone has come into your "space," as you have it drawn out here, then you are within your right to take action, if you feel threatened.  Those are the operative words.  CYA - Can You Articulate?  Once you make the decision to take your action, you have to be able to explain why you did what you did.  It's pretty easy to do, really: "He was so close to me, I thought he was going to hit me.  He was pointing at me and yelling at me in an aggressive and angry manner, and I feared for my safety."

Now, to what extent is a different story.  Should you try to "lock 'em up" and wait for help?  That depends on a lot of things, like 1) are you good at that? 2) how much bigger/stronger than you is he? 3) do you feel comfortable locking someone up and holding them down for a while?  Lots of thoughts to consider there.  A decent BJJ stylist might be ok with it.  A striker might not.  But that doesn't mean that answering with strikes is a less good idea, either.

[JazzKicker]

I think we also have to assume the assailant is alone and so are you?

If the bad guy has 2 friends behind him, tying him up in a joint lock won't work. Initiating anything is a bad idea.

If I'm with my family, I might stand my ground to protect them.. while I tell them to run, start the car, whatever.

If I'm in a place with security or police nearby ( a bar with bouncers, a street festival) I'd want to get their attention.

Seems to me you have a "duty to retreat", before making any moves.  I think you're "spidey sense" is the decider for when things are about to happen.

[KarateKen]

You don't have to wait for the other person to attack you for it to be a legit self-defense situation.  If someone is threatening you and is withing striking distance, you may need to throw the first punch. 

[Montana]

Generally, the law says you have the right to defend your personal space. There is no specific definition for "personal space".

What I taught was "that distance that makes you comfortable". That can vary from person to person, situation to situation.

In general, I like to think of it as "arms distance". If I can reach my arm out and touch you, you are in my space.

Now, as to what sort of technique you'd use to protect your personal space, that depends a lot on the situation and who's violating that space. A friend? Stranger? LARGE

[Spartacus Maximus]

Here are some more variables: it is outside not too long after dark, not stupid o’clock. The area isn’t considered risky or problematic and the area is urban although not in a large city. 

Both parties are alone. The aggro guy has managed to get within grabbing/hitting distance. He hasn’t touched the defender yet,  but is verbally and physically threatening.

This is something often overlooked or taken for granted, especially for people who have never had to physically defend themselves.

 

[KarateKen]

2 hours ago, Spartacus Maximus said:

Here are some more variables: it is outside not too long after dark, not stupid o’clock. The area isn’t considered risky or problematic and the area is urban although not in a large city. 

Both parties are alone. The aggro guy has managed to get within grabbing/hitting distance. He hasn’t touched the defender yet,  but is verbally and physically threatening.

This is something often overlooked or taken for granted, especially for people who have never had to physically defend themselves.

 

Fight of flight time.  

[crash]

4 hours ago, Spartacus Maximus said:

Here are some more variables: it is outside not too long after dark, not stupid o’clock. The area isn’t considered risky or problematic and the area is urban although not in a large city. 

Both parties are alone. The aggro guy has managed to get within grabbing/hitting distance. He hasn’t touched the defender yet,  but is verbally and physically threatening.

This is something often overlooked or taken for granted, especially for people who have never had to physically defend themselves.

 

take one step back, not only to distance yourself just out of reach but to also plant the rear foot into a forward fighting stance, while not being too obvious. at the same time reach up to just above waist level and loudly demand "stop" . this gets your hands up but looks like a separate gesture. loudly demanding a "stop" gives an opportunity to take control of the situation. if he is verbally threatening, he is also probably stating a reason for his anger. if its a misunderstanding or misidentification you now have a chance to change the "conversation" or convince him otherwise. from here, maintain control of the direction of future events. command he back off. tell him to keep his hands visible, no sudden reaches for his pockets, etc.... take and maintain control.... regardless though, if he takes another step you are now in a position to strike first. and justifiable. 

[Montana]

Again, is he in my "personal space"? Arms distance? Fists clenched? Postering? In general, the law allows you to strike first ONLY if you feel your life is in imminent danger.

Factors to consider, is he drugged? Drunk? Larger than you? Threating words? In your space? Previous encounters?

Self-defense in this scenario is so hard to define because of the factors that could be involved.