starting or ready postures in MA

[Spartacus Maximus]

The open handed hands in front starting or ready position used in Okinawa uechi ryu karate makes a lot of sense for practical defensive use. Does anyone have an idea of where or how it came to be?

Perhaps it is another feature of this style’s Chinese roots. None of the other Okinawan or Japanese martial arts have anything similar. Are there other martial arts in the world with something similar?

[Montana]

  On 4/9/2025 at 6:25 PM, Spartacus Maximus said:

The open handed hands in front starting or ready position used in Okinawa uechi ryu karate makes a lot of sense for practical defensive use. Does anyone have an idea of where or how it came to be?

Perhaps it is another feature of this style’s Chinese roots. None of the other Okinawan or Japanese martial arts have anything similar. Are there other martial arts in the world with something similar?

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Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito does this also. It's our more advanced "ready stance" for self defense. Hands are up, slight bend of the knees, feet about 2 feet apart.

 

[Spartacus Maximus]

It would be immensely helpful to illustrate if pictures could be found to compare what you describe from Matsumura seito with what is familiar from uechi ryu. In the M.S posture are the open hands held in exactly the same way or are there minor differences between that and what is seen in uechi ryu?

[sensei8]

Our ready position is more upright than most MA styles with open hands.

Our reason for our upright position is we can transition much quicker. Our reason for our open hands is for a more relaxed posture before engaging with said targets.

[Spartacus Maximus]

@sensei8Does yours have the hands out in the same way as in Uechiryu? What about it is similar and what is different?

The hypothesis of the OP is that the posture might have been something common to Okinawan martial arts, perhaps originating in the Chinese martial arts from the time long before the styles known as karate were named and “seperated” into the ryuha known post-WW2. Probably going as far back as Matsumura or earlier.

It is interesting and maybe telling that the stance doesn’t seem to be known/used outside of Uechiryu, yet you are the second person from a Shorin/shurite style to say it exists. Having trained only in kobayashi shorin ryu(2 different lineages), this posture never was taught, demonstrated or practiced in any dojo. 

[sensei8]

  On 4/11/2025 at 8:11 PM, Spartacus Maximus said:

sensei8Does yours have the hands out in the same way as in Uechiryu? What about it is similar and what is different

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To your first question…No.

To your second question…Similar/Different: Hands up; back hand in front of stomach with lead hand no higher than one’s shoulder. Our hands are kept close to our body.

Edited April 11 by sensei8

[Spartacus Maximus]

@sensei8

Is the posture/stance explicitly taught as part of kata like the Uechiryu “woah, chill dude” one seen in so many of their kata? Or is it something more of a kumite/application thing taught separately? It is interesting that this does not seem to be the case with the other heavily Shuri-te influenced ryuha, mine included

[sensei8]

  On 4/14/2025 at 8:27 PM, Spartacus Maximus said:

Is the posture/stance explicitly taught as part of kata like the Uechiryu “woah, chill dude” one seen in so many of their kata?

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No.

  On 4/14/2025 at 8:27 PM, Spartacus Maximus said:

Or is it something more of a kumite/application thing taught separately?

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Yes, for the most.

  On 4/14/2025 at 8:27 PM, Spartacus Maximus said:

It is interesting that this does not seem to be the case with the other heavily Shuri-te influenced ryuha, mine included

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Our founder made it clear that while similarities may exist in the styles that Shindokan is based on, those were the building blocks for Shindokan.

Over time, my own ready position can be found to be not exact as we were taught and what I teach because I’m an individual and not like some autonomous robot.

Our/My ready position is what it is depending upon the situation at that moment.

[Wado Heretic]

Masutatsu Ōyama demonstrates a similar posture in his book he identifies as Maeba. Although, his is more upright with weight off the front foot, and the overall posture slightly bladed rather than square. Motobu Choki also shows a similar posture in his books, although, he tends to have one hand low and the other high. 

One can argue the posture is somewhat implied in many Goju-Ryu Kata. The opening repeated moves are often done with both arms in front of the self, sometimes closed as in Miyagi's Sanchin Kata, and sometimes open. If you relax the arms, open the stance, close the chest and round the back as done at the end of a couple of Goju-Ryu kata, Sanseiryu springs to mind, then you can argue that is the actual "fighting posture". 

Many Chinese Martial Arts from the South such as Xingyiquan, Taijiquan, and Baguazhang all have postures involving bringing the hands up in front of the self in a similar manner as described in the opening post. Most importantly so does White Crane which had a significant influence on Karate in the late 19th/early 20th century. 

I cannot speak for other branches of Shorin-Ryu, but our Kakei Kumite as I was introduced to it in Okinawa basically uses that posture as one of its starting points, along with the wrist-to-wrist pushing hand position. 

Were I to hypothesise as to why it is not so apparent these days is because of the influence of Jiyu Kumite and Sport Competition. It is not very efficient for point fighting, and has limitations in competitive, full-contact fighting against a trained opponent. It is excellent for intercepting an attempted attack if the attacker commits, and can be great at fending off grabs and wild, swinging attacks. These do not tend to happen in point fighting, or even full-contact karate, where people move in and out very quickly for fear of giving away a point, or are making methodical attacks involving feints and set ups for combinations. When people became more focused on Jiyu Kumite from the 30s onwards, and Yakusoku Kumite against the fundamental techniques of their own systems of Karate, a practical self-defence posture gave way to what worked in sports and what worked best when you know what attack is coming. And bladed stances where you keep one hand back, or a closed stance where you keep the hands in and close, works quite well in both those circumstances. Both work well for moving off line, and getting good explosive power out of the limbs. But they do make it difficult to intercept attacks, do not offer as much protection against strikes you do not see coming, and do little to prevent the collapse of distance. 

Most, if not all, systems of Karate practice Seisan which implies this posture. Thus, I would not have been surprised if it were more ubiquitous in the past. Plus, it is a fairly natural stance to start Kakedameshi exercises and bouts from. 

With regards to its presence in Kata, in the Shorin Cannon of Kata as I have learnt it the only fighting posture that readily presents itself in any kata is what Masutatsu identified as Enshin and Motobu as Kaishō Kamae. A bladed stance with the hips pointed no more than 45 Degrees, with both hands in presence, but with back hand held a little back with the hand hovering around the elbow of the lead arm, and the posture offers good protection to the head and body and allows for fairly good north-south and lateral movement. 

One can argue all of the kata postures can offer primordial fighting shapes you could use as a fighting pose if the context and circumstance allowed. After all, Motobu supposedly used the opening posture of Pinan Yondan in his famed bout with a boxer. Although, I suspect it was his usual open hand stance, but he brought both hands up to head height to account for the boxer's punching, and it bore a resemblance to Pinan Yondan and the journalist had no better idea. But my current operational theory is that the kata often represent a situation where the fight is already under way - there is no time or point of getting in a "fighting stance". Hence, we do not see fighting stances in Okinawan kata very much or at all. An alternative hypothesis that has just struck me is that the karateka of the past already knew the fighting stances and saw no need to put them in kata. And as time has gone by and the basic and fundamental teachings have changed, the stances no one had a use for have gone extinct.