Rare Styles: KishimotoDi, UdunDi, To'on-Ryu, Kojo-Ryu, etc.

[bushido_man96]

On 1/28/2025 at 2:47 PM, Wastelander said:

Personally, I think there SHOULD be a competition format that is actually designed for pressure testing karate, and I think kakedameshi is the best option for that. Yes, it's still mutual combat, and you aren't reacting to untrained ruffians trying to mug you, but it forces you to fight at close range using the techniques of the kata.

You'd have to define that word in bold above for me; I'm not familiar with it.  Could you elaborate further, either here or in a separate article, the ruleset and layout you'd suggest?  I'd be really interested in reading it.

[Wastelander]

8 hours ago, bushido_man96 said:

You'd have to define that word in bold above for me; I'm not familiar with it.  Could you elaborate further, either here or in a separate article, the ruleset and layout you'd suggest?  I'd be really interested in reading it.

I actually wrote a fairly lengthy post on kakedameshi here on KF about 6 years ago:

As far as the competition ruleset, without getting into the weeds, the gist of it would be to award points for strikes, joint locks, strangleholds, and throws/sweeps/takedowns, as well as ring-outs, keeping your opponent on the ground, or getting back up while your opponent tries to keep you on the ground. Of course, if knockouts and submissions are allowed, then the points become less important, but the majority of people will not participate if knockouts are an option because it isn't safe.

[DarthPenguin]

I just read through your prior 2019 post @Wastelander and it was really interesting! I can totally see how that would be an excellent training activity. Only question i would have would be on how applicable it would be to competition. I think it would work fine from the purposes of people competing, and allowing for development of skills. Not sure how it would translate to a competition that may be spectated (and not sure if that is something you would be aiming for anyway - though if trying to grow the art maybe you would be?). It strikes me that it may end up somewhat similar to watching a bjj competition which unless you are really into bjj can often be very dull as you just see two people hugging a lot and don't pick up the technical intricacies (obviously there is the odd exception but i am sure you get the point).

What just came into my head though was how it might be really really well suited to building interest via seminars etc. I am thinking of stuff like Ian Abernethy's work where he travels a lot and teaches his techniques and is pretty well known. I could see a place for something similar with Noah Legel's kakedameshi courses!

[bushido_man96]

I definitely see this as a good exercise to train with others and bounce ideas off of.  If you would try to make it a competition, what kind of protective gear would you require, and how would you set up the point system?

[DarthPenguin]

Thinking about it it also reminds me of a drill we used to do in the past: we would put a mat on the floor (usual gym mat size) and you and opponent would both step on it at either end. Then you would spar. Stepping off meant a loss (and pushups!); being knocked off meant a loss etc. Was quite a good drill to get used to fighting in an enclosed space i found. Sounds quite similar - though without the initial connection!

[Wastelander]

On 1/30/2025 at 9:38 AM, DarthPenguin said:

I just read through your prior 2019 post @Wastelander and it was really interesting! I can totally see how that would be an excellent training activity. Only question i would have would be on how applicable it would be to competition. I think it would work fine from the purposes of people competing, and allowing for development of skills. Not sure how it would translate to a competition that may be spectated (and not sure if that is something you would be aiming for anyway - though if trying to grow the art maybe you would be?). It strikes me that it may end up somewhat similar to watching a bjj competition which unless you are really into bjj can often be very dull as you just see two people hugging a lot and don't pick up the technical intricacies (obviously there is the odd exception but i am sure you get the point).

What just came into my head though was how it might be really really well suited to building interest via seminars etc. I am thinking of stuff like Ian Abernethy's work where he travels a lot and teaches his techniques and is pretty well known. I could see a place for something similar with Noah Legel's kakedameshi courses!

Turning it into a competitive format is certainly the challenge, because it's easy to do when no one is keeping score, but if you want it to be a competition, you have to set up scoring criteria and there have to be people trained to be judges and referees. I actually suspect that, even if it took off as a competition format, it would not draw many spectators--it's too close range to see what's going on from the stands, so unless there are knockouts allowed it's unlikely that many people will want to watch it. Just as Judo and BJJ are primarily watched by people who practice those arts and their families, I think kakedameshi would be similarly watched only by karateka and their families. If it's done right, though, it could certainly become a feeder for MMA competition.

For what it's worth, I have actually taught a couple seminars on kakedameshi, and even sell the recorded video from one of them on my website. I've also tried to get focus groups put together from karateka around the world to test out competition rulesets, but they have proven to be inconsistent and eventually fall off the map.

On 1/31/2025 at 8:10 PM, bushido_man96 said:

I definitely see this as a good exercise to train with others and bounce ideas off of.  If you would try to make it a competition, what kind of protective gear would you require, and how would you set up the point system?

For gear, I use MMA-style gloves, mouthguard, and groin protector, with shin guards and headgear being optional. At such a close range, head kicks are unlikely, and we know that headgear is more likely to increase your risk of TBI, so shin guard and headgear don't really need to be used, IMO.

As for the points system, it gets a bit complicated, since there are so many things you can do in kakedameshi. If we made it so you could win by KO, most people would never participate, because it's just too dangerous, so while we could have a full-contact circuit where that's allowed, it probably won't attract many competitors. Semi-contact and light-contact divisions would probably be more popular. We also have to consider the fact that instant-win conditions (such as KO, submission, or ring-out) and higher point values will attract more focus from competitors, causing them to emphasize those aspects more than others. If we want kakedameshi to actually pressure test and represent karate, then that needs to be taken into account.

As a quick overview, I've proposed 5 minute matches, with the winner being the person with the most points by the end of the time, and a 1 minute sudden-death round if there is a draw. You can also win if your opponent taps out. There are penalties for breaking away from your opponent, because you have to maintain at least 1 point of contact with them at all times, as well as for stalling. Disqualification occurs after 5 penalties, or if you injure your opponent (including KOs outside of full-contact divisions). Points are awarded for achieving dominant positions, landing strikes, successfully manipulating the opponent with joint locks, and successfully knocking the opponent to the ground. You can also earn points for keeping your opponent on the ground, as long as you are in a dominant position, and you can earn points by getting back to your feet when your opponent is trying to keep you down.

1 Point - Strikes to the limbs and body, immobilizing the opponent's arms, disrupting the opponent's posture with a lock/sweep/attack to "vulnerable points," and successfully preventing a downed opponent from standing back up

2 Points - Strikes to the head, successfully defending a throw or leg-reaping takedown, successful takedown where both participants fall, holding an opponent in a lock or stranglehold for 10+ seconds, and regaining top position on the ground

3 points - Successful takedown where tori remains standing, successfully regaining the feet while the opponent is attempting to keep the fight on the ground, successful takedown from the ground against a standing opponent which results in tori getting back to their feet or taking top position on the ground, and pushing your opponent out of the ring.

These are still in the workshopping phase, of course, and I actually have a more detailed write-up I've used for people testing it out. My hope with the scoring is that it will emphasize trying to keep yourself off the ground and engaged in the fight standing up, and from the little feedback I've gotten so far, that seems to work. The biggest issue is preparing judges and referees, because they have to keep a close watch on what's happening and try to keep score (a click counter is best for that).

On 2/3/2025 at 5:24 AM, DarthPenguin said:

Thinking about it it also reminds me of a drill we used to do in the past: we would put a mat on the floor (usual gym mat size) and you and opponent would both step on it at either end. Then you would spar. Stepping off meant a loss (and pushups!); being knocked off meant a loss etc. Was quite a good drill to get used to fighting in an enclosed space i found. Sounds quite similar - though without the initial connection!

Since that basic premise comes from Chinese pushing hands competitions, that makes perfect sense. I actually include a provision for that in my ruleset, although it isn't an instant-win to push your opponent out of the ring.

[bushido_man96]

With your permission, @Wastelander, I'm going to put together a printout of your explanation above and the other article to perhaps present to the other black belts at our school as an alternate training method.

Edited 12 hours ago by bushido_man96