Please stay safe when picking a Dojo!

[Himokiri Karate]

I read a post that is extremely concerning and very troublesome to say the least. A karate dojo is not supposed to be run through fear but it must be a place of hard work, knowledge and creative endeavor.

I make this thread out of a very horrific incident in early 2000s I experienced as a young teen in Shotokan karate which was an extremely abusive sensei who was a kata freak and claimed he could beat Mike Tyson in a fight because he has a black belt and he absolutely ran his classes using shame and fear. Encouraging young adults to laugh at young kids if they messed up on a kata. Long story short, you do not learn how to fight and yet end up with a massive ego because of kata memorization.

Now I thought these people were weeded out in the mid-2000s. But it seems like they are not.

I remember I got in to boxing big time and still am. In fact, as a Tang Soo Do practitioner, I am encouraged to mix boxing to my skills for evasion, footwork, using jabs to set up strikes and angling off to safety or better position. This is was taught to me because my teachers were very encouraging, they absolutely pushed me to my absolute limits to the point of passing out with nonstop footwork training in terms of bouncing, jumping, spinning, switching in between boxing modalities to Tang Soo Do. So we trained super hard and we looked at jab variations, level changing, wide stance, narrow stance, muscle training, bone conditioning, breath work from Yoga, Qi Gong, Kiba dachi or horse stance for balance and posture.

Going back to the boxing gym, our training paid off, I would switch stances, bounce, go from side stance to squaring up close range. This is the essence of karate, its to truly find art, perfection, excellence through extreme effort and engaging in the subtle aspect of martial arts. Meanwhile to simply train as a way to just memorize kata is the opposite of the karate spirit, your goal is liberation and not self-imposed imprisonment of your soul. One of the reasons why I always respected the Kyokushin karatekas. They are different but same spirit and passion.

I AM ANGRY!

Honestly, I am really riled up and typing very aggressively and its extremely depressing to hear that karate dojos that are like the pre-MMA days. I always loved how MMA stressed the importance of freestyle combat. Granted, I did not like or agree with everything they do and I find that they are a bit neglectful on fundamentals but I always loved how they focused on freestyle aspect of the martial arts. Now I assumed all was well but moments before making this thread, I was completely horrified that there are dojos that run their practice using fear, shame and suppression. Honestly, this is a HUGE deal for me. If you guys are in US/Canada, I can show up to places like this and I would be more than happy to expose them.

I am generally very laxed about different martial arts and I am cool with hobbyist who look at it as basic self defense, fun exercise and community. No issue with them but I have a huge problem with someone selling things that doesn't work and doing it aggressively and using shame and fear as a way to avoid being scrutinized. This is my main issue and it is a huge issue for me. I feel like we have to really call this out and if you guys have a story or wish to share, please feel free.

[bushido_man96]

I would think with as litigious as society has become that these kind of schools would be weeded out by now. Somewhere like that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

An instructor being abusive like that is probably some kind of sociopath, and they should be watched out for. Tough training is one thing, but convincing your students to demean one another is not the Martial Spirit.

[Himokiri Karate]

I would think with as litigious as society has become that these kind of schools would be weeded out by now. Somewhere like that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

An instructor being abusive like that is probably some kind of sociopath, and they should be watched out for. Tough training is one thing, but convincing your students to demean one another is not the Martial Spirit.

Its true that society has become litigious but technically speaking, I don't think there is any legality to shaming language. I can see bad reviews but lot of abusive boxing coaches mask their abuse with the whole:

"Oh whats wrong? Cant handle a bit of a verbal roast? Whats going to happen on fight day?"

Verbally abusive coaches are completely useless. Great trainers are occupied with footwork, long range, mid-range and close range fighting and the type of strikes you need. Engaging and disengaging as well as pad work to work on cardio and timing.

A moment that is dedicated to berating someone is a moment that is lost on covering various aspects of combat. Now I am ok when I am doing the TKD drills and my teacher yells to go faster because him yelling is to inspire urgency and I am ok with that but to pause the training to insult people or encourage others to lay in to another student is something that makes me violently angry. As far as karate goes, I understand different schools have different methods but it always boggles my mind that in 2024, you can still have someone preach that kata is better for fighting than actual sparring. Keep in mind that I think sparring is overrated and very flawed without endless amount of repetition for solid foundation and martial arts are strange. Some students need to get in front of mirror and work on forms.

After that, its sparring and with sparring, we start with just a jab, then add a cross and focus on straight punch sparring and then we start adding to sparring one technique at a time or have a sparring that is lead hand with focus on body shots to avoid head hunting habits so the students.

There is no yelling, no screaming, no berating anyone. Not to mention that when sparring is over, I have to see if they are weak on the inside, not good at transitioning from mid-range to close range or if they are more natural at long range. So much to do, so much to teach to make sure the students are boxing prepared since that would be their first line of defense before they can bust out the karate/Tang Soo Do and its crazy that in 2024, we have kata freaks that for some odd reason they insist that main focus should be on kata and again, I am fine with kata but to advertise kata as the most efficient form of combat is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Also there is stance and form training. Holding the positions in stillness which is the Kung Fu inside the Tang Soo Do. That and I am in Vancouver, things are insanely expensive. The bit of teaching I do is post-sparring at the two boxing gyms that are run by good people. I appreciate the level of love and respect I get by seasoned boxers and newbies alike and so I cannot even fathom as to why someone would want to tear people down or create negative energy or even be so vindictive to take out their nastiness on new guys. One of the gyms I go to is owned by a former pro boxer with a winning record. Super chill all while some random karate sensei with no fighting experience who lays in to people. I cant believe this is the world we live in...

[bushido_man96]

A moment that is dedicated to berating someone is a moment that is lost on covering various aspects of combat. Now I am ok when I am doing the TKD drills and my teacher yells to go faster because him yelling is to inspire urgency and I am ok with that but to pause the training to insult people or encourage others to lay in to another student is something that makes me violently angry.

I agree with you 100%. There is no room for that kind of treatment of anyone. I had an instructor who was known for that kind of thing at times, and I always felt that same way about it. If there is an issue that becomes a teaching moment for a whole class, that is one thing. But outright berating someone is not tolerable. I would think this would end up driving students away, and the only ones staying are the ones willing to put up with it.

In the end, the students need to do their talking with their wallets, but closing them up and refusing to attend such a school. Those who choose to stay, I wonder why they do so? Intimidated to the point that they believe they'd be openly ridiculed for quitting? That kind of action is absurd.

As far as karate goes, I understand different schools have different methods but it always boggles my mind that in 2024, you can still have someone preach that kata is better for fighting than actual sparring. Keep in mind that I think sparring is overrated and very flawed without endless amount of repetition for solid foundation and martial arts are strange. Some students need to get in front of mirror and work on forms.

I don't think this is really debatable. If we look at the history of what most katas where put together for, as methods for basically storing information for later extrapolation, it is as if it was intentionally done to make it harder to access (if you read up on the traditions, this was probably so). Instructors would reveal much more to the students they trusted more. The real benefit comes from partner drills of the applications. At that point, why not just learn the applications?

With all that said, it's important to understand what most the "traditional" styles are doing. They are presenting the self-defense system in the same way that it was preserved over time in order to preserve the system in perpetuity. If this is understood by all parties involved, then everyone knows what they are signing up for, and are taking in all aspects of the training. After all, not everyone signs up for classes to learn how to fight.

[Himokiri Karate]

A moment that is dedicated to berating someone is a moment that is lost on covering various aspects of combat. Now I am ok when I am doing the TKD drills and my teacher yells to go faster because him yelling is to inspire urgency and I am ok with that but to pause the training to insult people or encourage others to lay in to another student is something that makes me violently angry.

I agree with you 100%. There is no room for that kind of treatment of anyone. I had an instructor who was known for that kind of thing at times, and I always felt that same way about it. If there is an issue that becomes a teaching moment for a whole class, that is one thing. But outright berating someone is not tolerable. I would think this would end up driving students away, and the only ones staying are the ones willing to put up with it.

In the end, the students need to do their talking with their wallets, but closing them up and refusing to attend such a school. Those who choose to stay, I wonder why they do so? Intimidated to the point that they believe they'd be openly ridiculed for quitting? That kind of action is absurd.

As far as karate goes, I understand different schools have different methods but it always boggles my mind that in 2024, you can still have someone preach that kata is better for fighting than actual sparring. Keep in mind that I think sparring is overrated and very flawed without endless amount of repetition for solid foundation and martial arts are strange. Some students need to get in front of mirror and work on forms.

I don't think this is really debatable. If we look at the history of what most katas where put together for, as methods for basically storing information for later extrapolation, it is as if it was intentionally done to make it harder to access (if you read up on the traditions, this was probably so). Instructors would reveal much more to the students they trusted more. The real benefit comes from partner drills of the applications. At that point, why not just learn the applications?

With all that said, it's important to understand what most the "traditional" styles are doing. They are presenting the self-defense system in the same way that it was preserved over time in order to preserve the system in perpetuity. If this is understood by all parties involved, then everyone knows what they are signing up for, and are taking in all aspects of the training. After all, not everyone signs up for classes to learn how to fight.

Agree with the first part. You vote with your money and students should not feel shame. They should expect to be physically exhausted and mentally pushed towards learning intricate techniques but not demoralized emotionally.

My apologies, the second part you quoted, I kind of wrote something messy. This is true, in history of karate, I heard that sensei would hold back on technique so that the student does not take it and start their own dojo and cut in their profit. That and if someone just trains jab, they would have an insane jab and so maybe one move at a time was a thing but I digress.

There is so much to learn in martial arts from not just technique but delivery of technique and its variation that it is impossible to stick to one move. But of course I tend to romanticize the past and sometimes I assume that ancient martial artist were like anime characters with a million deadly techniques. But in reality, they were just regular people with limited access to martial arts.

In a Tang Soo Do book, one of the greatest Tang Soo Do masters was named Master Ko and he was a cobbler or a shoemaker that taught Tang Soo Do in the afternoons as oppose to being a famous teacher. But I guess its a rough way to survive as a full time martial artist and I can see why some masters wish to hold back on students training.

[dennis63]

By its very nature, martial arts (both traditional and more modern) attract an alarming number of the wrong people. They train for the wrong reasons. Some have serious issues with maturity, ego, self-esteem and empathy.

There was a time when masters of martial arts would carefully consider whom they would teach. For a long time in history, fathers would pass their martial art to their sons or daughters, and maybe not all of them.

Today, that doesn't seem to play into the equation. One more student is one more fee paid toward the school's bottom line. And if the student is a sociopath but keeps paying, showing up and practicing, they can climb up the ranks and become the instructor of whom you speak. And making him an instructor / leader? He should never have been allowed to start practicing!

I agree with much of what you say here, but if you're arguing that bad people and bad instructors don't also exist in modern, more free-style or mixed martial arts, I think you may be mistaken.

[DarthPenguin]

By its very nature, martial arts (both traditional and more modern) attract an alarming number of the wrong people. They train for the wrong reasons. Some have serious issues with maturity, ego, self-esteem and empathy.

There was a time when masters of martial arts would carefully consider whom they would teach. For a long time in history, fathers would pass their martial art to their sons or daughters, and maybe not all of them.

Today, that doesn't seem to play into the equation. One more student is one more fee paid toward the school's bottom line. And if the student is a sociopath but keeps paying, showing up and practicing, they can climb up the ranks and become the instructor of whom you speak. And making him an instructor / leader? He should never have been allowed to start practicing!

I agree with much of what you say here, but if you're arguing that bad people and bad instructors don't also exist in modern, more free-style or mixed martial arts, I think you may be mistaken.

Yeah you are definitely correct, For issues with modern instructors just look into a few of the scandals about some prominent BJJ instructors in the last few years (won't go into more detail than that!).

One comment i would make though with regards to students voting with their wallets is that sometimes people put up with a lot due to the skill level / prestige of the instructor that they wouldn't otherwise. There are also some cultural differences too : i recall a former Asian instructor of mine who thought nothing was odd about asking his students to come and do work around his house/help him move etc. for free due to his position, whereas such things are a lot different in Western culture.

[Himokiri Karate]

By its very nature, martial arts (both traditional and more modern) attract an alarming number of the wrong people. They train for the wrong reasons. Some have serious issues with maturity, ego, self-esteem and empathy.

There was a time when masters of martial arts would carefully consider whom they would teach. For a long time in history, fathers would pass their martial art to their sons or daughters, and maybe not all of them.

Today, that doesn't seem to play into the equation. One more student is one more fee paid toward the school's bottom line. And if the student is a sociopath but keeps paying, showing up and practicing, they can climb up the ranks and become the instructor of whom you speak. And making him an instructor / leader? He should never have been allowed to start practicing!

I agree with much of what you say here, but if you're arguing that bad people and bad instructors don't also exist in modern, more free-style or mixed martial arts, I think you may be mistaken.

I partially disagree, in fact, modern or mixed martial arts in some ways is worse in terms of attracting criminal elements and the way it advertised does attract thugs and gang members. Its just that with MMA, I felt like traditional martial arts was no longer "cool" and so it would no longer attract morally bankrupt characters or egomaniacs. Maybe just a McDojo operator at worse.

The thing is though, with the MMA, people get "checked" when they want to flare up their ego unless there is an alpha frat house dynamic and if there is, they are out of business in a hurry. Traditional martial arts is great because you get to build skillset in an environment that is much safer for the human body than an MMA style gym but that safety can sometimes create arrogance because the egomaniacally inclined character will train in the art but will not be tested and not be humbled.

So overall I agree, bad people are in MMA. Heck, tons in boxing and ego is kind of encouraged because some trainers from the old school days are cherry pickers and they will give their golden boys special treatment and everyone else has to get verbally beaten down.

[dennis63]

By its very nature, martial arts (both traditional and more modern) attract an alarming number of the wrong people. They train for the wrong reasons. Some have serious issues with maturity, ego, self-esteem and empathy.

There was a time when masters of martial arts would carefully consider whom they would teach. For a long time in history, fathers would pass their martial art to their sons or daughters, and maybe not all of them.

Today, that doesn't seem to play into the equation. One more student is one more fee paid toward the school's bottom line. And if the student is a sociopath but keeps paying, showing up and practicing, they can climb up the ranks and become the instructor of whom you speak. And making him an instructor / leader? He should never have been allowed to start practicing!

I agree with much of what you say here, but if you're arguing that bad people and bad instructors don't also exist in modern, more free-style or mixed martial arts, I think you may be mistaken.

I partially disagree, in fact, modern or mixed martial arts in some ways is worse in terms of attracting criminal elements and the way it advertised does attract thugs and gang members. Its just that with MMA, I felt like traditional martial arts was no longer "cool" and so it would no longer attract morally bankrupt characters or egomaniacs. Maybe just a McDojo operator at worse.

The thing is though, with the MMA, people get "checked" when they want to flare up their ego unless there is an alpha frat house dynamic and if there is, they are out of business in a hurry. Traditional martial arts is great because you get to build skillset in an environment that is much safer for the human body than an MMA style gym but that safety can sometimes create arrogance because the egomaniacally inclined character will train in the art but will not be tested and not be humbled.

So overall I agree, bad people are in MMA. Heck, tons in boxing and ego is kind of encouraged because some trainers from the old school days are cherry pickers and they will give their golden boys special treatment and everyone else has to get verbally beaten down.

I'm not sure where we disagree, if at all.

I'm a traditionalist at heart. The "old" styles have been handed down to us over at least 400 years, including times when practicing them was banned and times when martial arts was used in self defense against invading soldiers with weapons. The techniques that survive come to us from the people who lived through those ordeals.

But the traditional arts carry with them an element of philosophy and ethical conduct. Along with that comes a level of trust and mutual respect between instructor and student. There is absolutely no place for an instructor who berates his students.

And I agree that MMA schools attract a higher percentage of the wrong people. The whole attitude and the way MMA is presented, to me is the opposite of what martial arts has always been, and should continue to be.

[Himokiri Karate]

By its very nature, martial arts (both traditional and more modern) attract an alarming number of the wrong people. They train for the wrong reasons. Some have serious issues with maturity, ego, self-esteem and empathy.

There was a time when masters of martial arts would carefully consider whom they would teach. For a long time in history, fathers would pass their martial art to their sons or daughters, and maybe not all of them.

Today, that doesn't seem to play into the equation. One more student is one more fee paid toward the school's bottom line. And if the student is a sociopath but keeps paying, showing up and practicing, they can climb up the ranks and become the instructor of whom you speak. And making him an instructor / leader? He should never have been allowed to start practicing!

I agree with much of what you say here, but if you're arguing that bad people and bad instructors don't also exist in modern, more free-style or mixed martial arts, I think you may be mistaken.

I partially disagree, in fact, modern or mixed martial arts in some ways is worse in terms of attracting criminal elements and the way it advertised does attract thugs and gang members. Its just that with MMA, I felt like traditional martial arts was no longer "cool" and so it would no longer attract morally bankrupt characters or egomaniacs. Maybe just a McDojo operator at worse.

The thing is though, with the MMA, people get "checked" when they want to flare up their ego unless there is an alpha frat house dynamic and if there is, they are out of business in a hurry. Traditional martial arts is great because you get to build skillset in an environment that is much safer for the human body than an MMA style gym but that safety can sometimes create arrogance because the egomaniacally inclined character will train in the art but will not be tested and not be humbled.

So overall I agree, bad people are in MMA. Heck, tons in boxing and ego is kind of encouraged because some trainers from the old school days are cherry pickers and they will give their golden boys special treatment and everyone else has to get verbally beaten down.

I'm not sure where we disagree, if at all.

I'm a traditionalist at heart. The "old" styles have been handed down to us over at least 400 years, including times when practicing them was banned and times when martial arts was used in self defense against invading soldiers with weapons. The techniques that survive come to us from the people who lived through those ordeals.

But the traditional arts carry with them an element of philosophy and ethical conduct. Along with that comes a level of trust and mutual respect between instructor and student. There is absolutely no place for an instructor who berates his students.

And I agree that MMA schools attract a higher percentage of the wrong people. The whole attitude and the way MMA is presented, to me is the opposite of what martial arts has always been, and should continue to be.

Exactly you are correct. The moment you step in to the training room, the training and transferring technique is the only thing that matters.

It comes down to marketing and I believe in todays economy and modern culture, MMA presents an opportunity to standout and outlandish behavior is rewarded for it. So this creates an unhealthy character of misconduct resulting in positive outcome. The main issue is that it also creates depression and untold levels of misery.

If I may give an example from my boxing days:

During the 2000s and early 2010s, boxing was a reclusive culture and was called a poor mans sport. Back then, it was like 70 dollars a year and you were expected to fight for the club so they could keep the lights on. No room for recreational members. With that said, you could have been the potential hot shot but if you did bad, the coach would be immensely disappointed and they would mention how being the champ and winning fights can give you money, fame and respect. While losing is a fate that is worse than death itself because you go back to being a nobody.

This was the attitude of many boxing coaches. So because of that, lot of guys had incredible cardio and stamina but they hated training and places were tense because every boxer wanted to the trainers favorite student and so there was always that tension. Long story short, people would burn out, losing a fight messed boxers up, lot of them would end up worse than when they started because they would get addicted to drugs and if they failed to make it, they would feel like complete failures because their entire identity was tied to being a successful fighter.

Traditional martial arts is great because the fight is more internal. Granted some traditionalist are somewhat laxed with their cardio which is not good but overall, people who are life long martial artist tend to do very well in life because martial arts in a traditional setting teaches to not just be a winner but to be able to contemplate, to reflect on the technique. The idea is mastery of the skills and styles which allows for someone to be more relaxed in engaging in martial arts training and are not rushing towards results. Of course no subculture is perfect. But overall, the traditional martial artist seem to do better in life than combat sports fighters because they train in a more holistic environment with more well adjusted individual .