Karate Organizations

[DarthPenguin]

I've been through this. I've attained black belt certificates in two different TKD organizations. Two different curriculums. However, it didn't change the fact that I was already a black belt. They can choose not to recognize it, but they can't take it away from me.

This is the same thing as considering yourself handsome because your mother said so (independent dojo owner giving you a dan certificate), but then denying the reality that manifests when women repeatedly reject you because they're repulsed by your appearance (affiliated dojos not recognizing it).

I'm with bushido_man here. Taking his example even further i am currently in the process of regrading in Shotokan since i had not trained in it for years. I gave up my prior Dan rank (was only shodan so nothing special!!) and decided to start from white belt again since i wanted to be black belt level when i wore the belt, not just wearing a 'legacy belt'.

I personally view belts as important for safety purposes when sparring etc and as a useful marker when techniques are being taught as to peoples likely skill level. Other than that they are just a bit of material around your waist. You train to get more skilled/fitter/better able to defend yourself etc. and the belt is just a by-product of that.

Skill levels are subjective, though measuring them against set criteria can alleviate that partially. So it is not entirely irrational for a school to say that they are having you start again as you cant be marked against their criteria. I've always found though that people are usually sensible - generally people will openly mention that they have trained before or it is readily apparent. Those who don't are usually just there for an ego boost (i have found) and want everyone to look at them as the freakishly skilled newbie.

I would be interested though in how long it took bushido_man to get the TKD BB with the second org? Did they expedite it a little (double promotions / more regular gradings etc.) ?

[Sailor Sindbad]

I personally view belts as important for safety purposes when sparring etc and as a useful marker when techniques are being taught as to peoples likely skill level. Other than that they are just a bit of material around your waist. You train to get more skilled/fitter/better able to defend yourself etc. and the belt is just a by-product of that.

The belt may be just a piece of cloth, but your dan ranking is a credential. This isn't about the belt. It's about the credential. And credentials are only as good as how recognized they are outside of the entity that issued it.

[Wastelander]

I don't entirely agree. The cons are the kancho's concerns in the sense that they are responsible for how the organization is run, but they are absolutely concerns for the students the moment they begin to affect the students--the only difference is that the students have no power to correct it, and simply have to suffer with whatever the kancho decides. For example, the political machinations and scheming can result in, as happened to me, being denied a rank exam simply for wanting your school to be independent while you personally remain in the organization.

That's your concern, not your students. But does the fact that you're seeking rank from a particular organization while your students are being denied the ability to do the same not bother you at all?

Technically, I wasn't seeking rank--I was told I was at 3rd Dan level, and would be taking my test on a given date. I also didn't intend to seek additional rank while remaining in the organization, I simply intended to continue supporting the organization with my membership. I have been quite clear with my students about my independent status, and no one has had any issues with it, but had I remained with the organization as I had originally intended, I would have also given students the option to test with the organization, and taught them accordingly, if they wanted to do so. I would not have denied them that, but knowing what I know, now, about the higher-ups in the organization, they might have denied my students out of spite, anyway, which is inappropriate.

Friends trading ranks can result in the students of those people being harassed about their instructors being frauds.

Doesn't seem as bad as the self-promotions that are more likely in independant dojo owners.

Just because something is less bad than something else doesn't mean it isn't still a problem.

Locking down an exact curriculum stifles creativity and the evolution of the art, which impacts everyone training in it.

We're talking about "traditional martial arts." There are non-traditional martial arts that are designed to evolve, that are focused on "the streets," that train in the uses of knives, firearms, extendable batons, etc in addition to hand-to-hand.

As long as students know that that's what they're getting, versus "traditional" Japanese/Okinawan/Korean martial arts - hey, no problem.

Karate was never intended to be written in stone, or preserved in amber, never to be changed. The founders of all the major styles of karate were quite clear on that, and yet it's become the norm, despite their wisdom on the matter. There's no reason traditional martial arts can't evolve.

But if they're in a dojo that calls itself as "Goju-ryu" and they're allowed to carry on believing that their dan certificate will hold the same weight as one issued by IOGKF, then it becomes a problem.

Even within an organization, your rank can carry different weight from dojo to dojo, because different instructors hold their students to different standards. My late Sensei's requirements for 1st Dan were equivalent to the organization's requirements for 5th Dan, except for the lower age and time-in-grade aspects. Some schools in the organization don't do any kumite, some do point kumite, some do knockdown, some do MMA. It's easy to say that your rank certificate is better than someone else's because of the organization stamp on it, but the reality is that your instructor has more to do with it than the organization, and you're the one who has to back it up. If you are in the IOGKF and get your 1st Dan, but you've never done kumite or worked bunkai, and you go to another IOGKF dojo that requires a lot of kumite and bunkai work, they might honor your piece of paper, but you'll still be put in lower ranked classes to catch you up, because you aren't up to the instructor's standard.

High costs can result in students dropping out and putting both the organization and its individual schools at risk of shutting down, and then we could lose a great deal of knowledge.

People in general are aware that you get what you pay for. The shodan exam at my ISKF dojo is $80. I'd gladly pay that, and still be a shodan at any ISKF, SKIF, ITKF, or most other Shotokan dojos worldwide, than pay $20 at an independent Shotokan dojo and not have that.

Except that paying more doesn't actually get you a better certification than paying less. In fact, I would argue that the higher the cost of the rank exam, the lower the legitimacy of the organization tends to be. There are some solid organizations out there that charge nothing, or next to nothing, for rank certifications, but there are a plethora of good-ol'-boys organizations trading money for rank and charging an arm and a leg. I know of several people who've paid thousands of dollars to be ranked as 8th, 9th, or 10th Dans in various organizations.

Your argument also suggests that larger organizations are more legitimate than smaller ones, because your certificate is recognized in more places, but that simply doesn't hold up, IMO. Often, the less legitimate organizations are also larger than more legitimate ones, because people love rank and are willing to pay to get it, even if they haven't earned it. For example, the Bugeikan is a perfectly legitimate organization, headquartered on Okinawa, and run with integrity, but there are, MAYBE, 200 members, worldwide, so even if you earn a legitimate certificate from the Bugeikan, the chances of you finding another Bugeikan school somewhere are slim to none. Does that make the certificate worthless? In contrast, there are several sketchy American martial arts organizations that sell ranks to the highest bidder which have thousands of members, and you're much more likely to find a member dojo if you relocate that will recognize your certificate. Does that make the certificate worth more than the one from the smaller, legitimate organization?

[sensei8]

Our Founder refused to kowtow to whatever the MA powers might be on Okinawa. He ignored the MA powers that be on Okinawa. He wasn't going to abide by their rules and regulations and whatever else. He continued to teach on Okinawa despite what anyone said.

In a short time afterwards, he moved his family as well as his student to the USA where they resided in the San Fernando Valley in the city of Canoga Park within the Los Angeles County.

The beginnings of the SKKA were birthed in Okinawa, and firmly founded in the USA. One of our founders' biggest directives was that the Student Body came first over everything and anything; he was quite protective of his Student Body.

Student Body then SKKA, and not the other way.