On the Abolition of Yudansha Grades

[DarthPenguin]

I think that some of the different views also are due to the different meaning ascribed to the black belt level.

Some people look at it as having completed the basics and you are now ready to learn properly, in which case i can see why some people would advocate for more dan ranks and assessments.

Others (and this is the tack i think Wastelander is taking) look at it as a sign of 'mastery' of the art - you have completed the syllabus and now it is about personal development. To my mind it is more like the bjj style of black belt : once you have got it then it is down to you to develop yourself - thats the formal instruction done (though i am very very very far away from bjj bb so i might be wrong here!).

Unfortunately the general public often conflate the two: thinking of someone being a martial arts master after getting bb even if it is the older school 'finishing apprenticeship' that taken 3-4 years.

[Wastelander]

I think that some of the different views also are due to the different meaning ascribed to the black belt level.

Some people look at it as having completed the basics and you are now ready to learn properly, in which case i can see why some people would advocate for more dan ranks and assessments.

Others (and this is the tack i think Wastelander is taking) look at it as a sign of 'mastery' of the art - you have completed the syllabus and now it is about personal development. To my mind it is more like the bjj style of black belt : once you have got it then it is down to you to develop yourself - thats the formal instruction done (though i am very very very far away from bjj bb so i might be wrong here!).

Unfortunately the general public often conflate the two: thinking of someone being a martial arts master after getting bb even if it is the older school 'finishing apprenticeship' that taken 3-4 years.

This is an interesting facet of the discussion, because I actually still see Shodan (which literally means "beginning level," after all) as having completed learning the basics and being ready to start learning, in earnest. To me (and my late Sensei), the solo kata, the training drills, and the example applications, are all "basics," in a sense. It isn't that you've mastered the curriculum, but you have memorized and gotten comfortable with all of the fundamental material of the style, which gives you the freedom to begin exploring and studying it in depth.

The funny thing about this is that I acknowledge how different my approach is to what is generally done on Okinawa. There, Shodan is ACTUALLY considered to be a simple sign that you've learned the basics--the actual kihon, and a couple fundamental kata--and can be achieved in 2-3 years. In the West, we have long put black belt on a pedestal, and MANY schools already require as much for Shodan as someone testing for Nidan-Godan on Okinawa. I recognize that I've, essentially, built on that Westernization with my approach, rather than the Okinawan one, but I see that as part of the evolution of the art, in a way. Because Westerners have done that for so long, and because other arts, like BJJ, have taken the same route, it is often expected that a black belt have more of a "mastery" of their art than was traditionally required, and we should (IMO) maintain some quality control within karate by keeping up with that trend. I know that seems anathema to traditional karate, but the ranks were only added less than 100 years ago, in the first place, and even Judo, where they came from, has changed how they work in that time.

[bushido_man96]

I think the term "mastery" gets a little too overused, and we got caught up in too much. I think "expertise" is a much more valid way to approach what a black belt has accomplished upon reaching that rank.

[DarthPenguin]

I think the term "mastery" gets a little too overused, and we got caught up in too much. I think "expertise" is a much more valid way to approach what a black belt has accomplished upon reaching that rank.

Valid point! Totally agree also, much better term

[DarthPenguin]

There might also a difference with regards to countries in the west. Speaking as someone UK based (and taking shotokan) it is not uncommon for someone to get their black belt in 3 years (from what i have seen).

Most reasonable students seem to stick to the minimum timeframe throughout the kyu grades and only seem to slow (if at all at 1st kyu). Does seem to take longer than the minimum for most people from 1st to 2nd dan though. This is also under the KUGB, so a substantial and well thought of organisation

[Wastelander]

I think the term "mastery" gets a little too overused, and we got caught up in too much. I think "expertise" is a much more valid way to approach what a black belt has accomplished upon reaching that rank.

I absolutely agree! We never called anyone "master" in my late Sensei's dojo, or the organization we were a part of, and in the dojo I was part of prior to that, I was taught that the term "master" was only used posthumously. I realize that some of the Japanese titles used in martial arts can be translated to "master," but if you break down the roots of the terms, that isn't really what they mean.

[sensei8]

Way too many get hung up on the too many things that are of the MA. Master is surely right up at the top. it's just a word. How one treats the word can cause such strife in the MAist for one reason(s) or another.

Sad that MAists get all bent out of shape whenever the word Master is used no matter the context it might've been used in when it relies to the MA. However, we're quite ok when the word master is used in other professions, i.e., Master Plumbing, Master Electrician, and Master Automotive Technician, to mention just a few.

Expertise or Master are just labels, and labels in the MA separate us unnecessarily. We oftentimes can't see the forest because of all of the trees. Guess what? Expertise or Master or Whatever other labels all have one thing in common...Proof is on the floor.

I neither possess Mastery or Expertise but if I may borrow the words that Bryan Millis eloquently spoke...

"What I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career!"​

Even then, proof is on the floor.

Edited March 30, 2023 by sensei8

[bushido_man96]

A quote from Taken: Love IT!

[Sailor Sindbad]

Not sure if it's already been stated, but the issue I would take with this is the fact that it has always been preached that "black belt is not the end; it's only the beginning."

If you get rid of dan ranks, then that adage is no longer true. Black belt, indeed, becomes the end.

[Sailor Sindbad]

I think the term "mastery" gets a little too overused, and we got caught up in too much. I think "expertise" is a much more valid way to approach what a black belt has accomplished upon reaching that rank.

I absolutely agree! We never called anyone "master" in my late Sensei's dojo, or the organization we were a part of, and in the dojo I was part of prior to that, I was taught that the term "master" was only used posthumously. I realize that some of the Japanese titles used in martial arts can be translated to "master," but if you break down the roots of the terms, that isn't really what they mean.

Personally, I'm not calling ANYONE "master." Maybe I'll the call the guy at the KFC drive-thru "master," because at least he's giving me biscuits. No, but seriously, I'm not calling anyone that. If the term was at least modified somehow, then I'd take less of an issue with this.