On the Abolition of Yudansha Grades

[DarthPenguin]

Another thing in favour of the abolition of additional dan ranks is what happens in a lot of the grappling styles (and possibly the full contact karate ones too but i am not directly familiar with this).

My son's judo teacher is an international judo competitor. They are also a 1st dan and i don't think they have any plans to change that anytime soon. Most of the serious competitive judoka i have met are also 1st dan or maybe the odd 2nd. They leave the additional dans til post their competitive career. They need their black belt to enter the top level comps etc but once they have that then they are not bothered at all. (as an aside i did once ask my brother in law what would happen if someone who was a high level competitor in another grappling art took up judo and won the national champ as a green belt or similar as i think it is theoretically possible - he said no one would care and you would likely get presented your bb on the way to the podium!).

Similarly with bjj, while there are degrees, what is important is black belt or not black belt. I say to people i have a black belt instructor i train under, said the same under my old one too. Didn't ever mention which one had more degrees as no one really cares most of the time.

Skills are what is important i think. Issue i can see is if in a non competitive style then it is hard to separate out who is good from who is not without an additional ranking system. What i mean by that is :

(theoretically) if someone has multiple dans then they should be skilled in a system and more so than someone with less dans (with obvious exceptions in some cases). Moreover, if it is a decent sized accrediting body, then for the layperson / interested student there is some kind of external validity of the persons skill. Without this, and without competition, then you are left with someone just saying they are a black belt and thats it. This then could lead to some more unscrupulous individuals, earning a black belt and then trying to profit a lot from it, when they aren't really good enough to teach (i am thinking of the mcdojo type people who get a shodan, invent an offshoot and instantly become a 10th dan in their made up style). For the new entrant it would be hard for them to tell if the person is actually skilled and could lead to wasted time or even worse.

Obviously if someone is able to say : X times champion of (insert popular event here) then this would supersede it.

Lineage could partially help e.g. i notice that Wastelander has carefully laid out his in his signature (which is commendable) but that also relies upon some knowledge to be aware of who is 'good' or how to check up on it. e.g using a bjj example, Cesar Gracie was notoriously hard to earn a black belt from. IF you got one then you must be excellent whereas there are some people who aren't as stringent in their requirements

[Wastelander]

With regard to instructors, I did go with a certification for those who want to teach, as opposed to different belts. Essentially, you can earn a black belt in my adult curriculum, and if you want to be an instructor, there is more material (such as the childrens' curriculum, and the KishimotoDi material I teach) that you would have to learn, and be tested on. Rather than a new obi, you would be awarded with a shidoin (instructor) certificate.

I'm sure the reduced number of belts and lack of dan grades probably would be a discouraging factor for some, so I agree that it probably wouldn't work well in a large-scale commercial school. With kids, I do have a separate belt system, entirely--also similar to BJJ and Judo--so there are more belts for children to work through. It helps to provide that tangible incentive. I just feel that adults shouldn't need as much of that as kids do, and I'd like to think that removing the additional dan grades would get rid of the "I should be a higher rank than so-and-so" factor simply because there ARE no higher ranks to be had.

I think it's pertinent to mention that adults like shiny things as much as kids do. The thing that adults have that kids don't is the ability to temper expectations and be swayed by cooler heads. I think the question, in this case, should be "What kind of attitude do we want adult black belts to engender?"

I have spent the last 14 years as a Shodan and have been happy with that. It wasn't until I opened my own school that I began to desire a higher rank, for the sake of my students. I've spent that 14 years, off and on, enriching my own journey as a martial artist. Branching out and learning different philosophies and techniques has been a joy, and I don't feel weird telling people that I am still a Shodan after all this time. Rank doesn't matter to me, my experience does. I feel like it's a place that a lot of people reach at one point or another. Rank is not who we are, experience is. Rank, in a perfect world, exists only as a visual marker of that experience. However, as you pointed out, it often exists as a political tool. It serves only to show a hierarchy of power in too many organizations. Do they have the right experiences? Do they have the right temperament? These questions are thrown to the wayside when rank is a purely political thing.

I agree with, all things said. The abolition of yudansha would be what is best for karate, I think, in general.

I absolutely acknowledge that belts are a useful motivational and goal-setting tool for adults, which is why I still have a few before black belt--I have known a few people who want to do just white belts and black belts, the way Judo originally started out, but I think that's TOO limiting. As you mention, adults can be reasoned with, and can reason with themselves, with regard to the length of time it takes to achieve their goals. They can also be made to understand that the ranks aren't the important thing, but rather the experience, knowledge, and skill they build as they work to reach those ranks. I just feel that, once you have reached black belt, you really SHOULDN'T care about the belts, anyway--it's an almost universal statement from dan ranks to kyu ranks, but somehow once people become dan ranks, they often ignore their own advice and focus on belts again.

With regard to opening a school/dojo, that's something that I've been frustrated by, as well. Most organizations require you to be a certain dan rank before you can open a school, or even test students for rank. The trouble with that is that the ability to effectively teach has absolutely nothing to do with the belt rank you have. There are 8th Dans who can't teach to save their lives, and 1st Dans who are fantastic teachers, and may even be professional teachers in their day jobs. It makes no sense to say the 8th Dan can have a school, but the 1st Dan can't--especially when you consider how long it would take for the 1st Dan's students to catch up to them in knowledge and skill, even if you assume that 1st Dan doesn't continue their own training. There's also the matter of how high a rank someone can test their students for, which seems to vary from 1 rank below to 3 below, on average, but if--like you--you've been a Shodan for YEARS, continuing your training and learning, then I don't see why you should be limited to ranking someone up to Shodan. You may not have the belt, but you do have the experience and knowledge.

Another thing in favour of the abolition of additional dan ranks is what happens in a lot of the grappling styles (and possibly the full contact karate ones too but i am not directly familiar with this).

My son's judo teacher is an international judo competitor. They are also a 1st dan and i don't think they have any plans to change that anytime soon. Most of the serious competitive judoka i have met are also 1st dan or maybe the odd 2nd. They leave the additional dans til post their competitive career. They need their black belt to enter the top level comps etc but once they have that then they are not bothered at all. (as an aside i did once ask my brother in law what would happen if someone who was a high level competitor in another grappling art took up judo and won the national champ as a green belt or similar as i think it is theoretically possible - he said no one would care and you would likely get presented your bb on the way to the podium!).

Similarly with bjj, while there are degrees, what is important is black belt or not black belt. I say to people i have a black belt instructor i train under, said the same under my old one too. Didn't ever mention which one had more degrees as no one really cares most of the time.

Skills are what is important i think. Issue i can see is if in a non competitive style then it is hard to separate out who is good from who is not without an additional ranking system. What i mean by that is :

(theoretically) if someone has multiple dans then they should be skilled in a system and more so than someone with less dans (with obvious exceptions in some cases). Moreover, if it is a decent sized accrediting body, then for the layperson / interested student there is some kind of external validity of the persons skill. Without this, and without competition, then you are left with someone just saying they are a black belt and thats it. This then could lead to some more unscrupulous individuals, earning a black belt and then trying to profit a lot from it, when they aren't really good enough to teach (i am thinking of the mcdojo type people who get a shodan, invent an offshoot and instantly become a 10th dan in their made up style). For the new entrant it would be hard for them to tell if the person is actually skilled and could lead to wasted time or even worse.

Obviously if someone is able to say : X times champion of (insert popular event here) then this would supersede it.

Lineage could partially help e.g. i notice that Wastelander has carefully laid out his in his signature (which is commendable) but that also relies upon some knowledge to be aware of who is 'good' or how to check up on it. e.g using a bjj example, Cesar Gracie was notoriously hard to earn a black belt from. IF you got one then you must be excellent whereas there are some people who aren't as stringent in their requirements

Yeah, like I mentioned in the OP, competition-based arts are a different beast when it comes to ranks. I am actually a green belt in Judo, and have been since 2008, despite training in Judo regularly until 2010, because although I learned all of the curriculum for Shodan, and could demonstrate it on request, I was just not a good competitor. My Judo sensei required you to win (in actual tournaments) around 6 matches out of 10 against people of the rank above you before you could be promoted, IIRC. I have gotten better at throwing people since then, but I haven't competed, and haven't been training directly under a Judo instructor, so there's no rank promotions in my future, and that's okay. I can still incorporate it into my training and teaching. I definitely did get the feeling, though, that if you come in with a low rank and sweep a tournament, it would not be out of the ordinary for you to be promoted on the spot. Heck, I even saw it happen at a tournament, once.

[username18526]

Self-defense should not be gatekept in that manner, IMO, and neither should fundamental grappling. You don't need to teach your yellow belts how to put a gogoplata on somebody trying to stab you, lol.

Brother, preach it! (TKD/Karate) What's strange is that several of the techniques taught at higher level were ones that were considered "basic" when training in Judo and BJJ.

[bushido_man96]

Skills are what is important i think. Issue i can see is if in a non competitive style then it is hard to separate out who is good from who is not without an additional ranking system. What i mean by that is :

(theoretically) if someone has multiple dans then they should be skilled in a system and more so than someone with less dans (with obvious exceptions in some cases). Moreover, if it is a decent sized accrediting body, then for the layperson / interested student there is some kind of external validity of the persons skill. Without this, and without competition, then you are left with someone just saying they are a black belt and thats it. This then could lead to some more unscrupulous individuals, earning a black belt and then trying to profit a lot from it, when they aren't really good enough to teach (i am thinking of the mcdojo type people who get a shodan, invent an offshoot and instantly become a 10th dan in their made up style). For the new entrant it would be hard for them to tell if the person is actually skilled and could lead to wasted time or even worse.

I'd be leery to attempt to tie anything to competitive achievements. Reason being is that there comes a point in competitions where natural ability becomes a big factor in who is able to compete and who isn't. It's easier for great athletes to demonstrate skill in competition. But great athletes aren't always the best coaches and instructors. There are lots of people out there that are so naturally gifted that they pick up on movements easily, and don't struggle with physical skills. Hence, they don't have to troubleshoot as often as the less naturally talented, who have to work harder and smarter to get just a little bit more out of everything. These are the folks who tend to become good coaches and teachers.

Yeah, like I mentioned in the OP, competition-based arts are a different beast when it comes to ranks. I am actually a green belt in Judo, and have been since 2008, despite training in Judo regularly until 2010, because although I learned all of the curriculum for Shodan, and could demonstrate it on request, I was just not a good competitor. My Judo sensei required you to win (in actual tournaments) around 6 matches out of 10 against people of the rank above you before you could be promoted, IIRC. I have gotten better at throwing people since then, but I haven't competed, and haven't been training directly under a Judo instructor, so there's no rank promotions in my future, and that's okay. I can still incorporate it into my training and teaching. I definitely did get the feeling, though, that if you come in with a low rank and sweep a tournament, it would not be out of the ordinary for you to be promoted on the spot. Heck, I even saw it happen at a tournament, once.

Case in point here. Knows the curriculum for shodan, but due to the competition standards set by that instructor, can't be a shodan. But may in fact have the competence to teach and coach the movements, given the chance.

[DarthPenguin]

Skills are what is important i think. Issue i can see is if in a non competitive style then it is hard to separate out who is good from who is not without an additional ranking system. What i mean by that is :

(theoretically) if someone has multiple dans then they should be skilled in a system and more so than someone with less dans (with obvious exceptions in some cases). Moreover, if it is a decent sized accrediting body, then for the layperson / interested student there is some kind of external validity of the persons skill. Without this, and without competition, then you are left with someone just saying they are a black belt and thats it. This then could lead to some more unscrupulous individuals, earning a black belt and then trying to profit a lot from it, when they aren't really good enough to teach (i am thinking of the mcdojo type people who get a shodan, invent an offshoot and instantly become a 10th dan in their made up style). For the new entrant it would be hard for them to tell if the person is actually skilled and could lead to wasted time or even worse.

I'd be leery to attempt to tie anything to competitive achievements. Reason being is that there comes a point in competitions where natural ability becomes a big factor in who is able to compete and who isn't. It's easier for great athletes to demonstrate skill in competition. But great athletes aren't always the best coaches and instructors. There are lots of people out there that are so naturally gifted that they pick up on movements easily, and don't struggle with physical skills. Hence, they don't have to troubleshoot as often as the less naturally talented, who have to work harder and smarter to get just a little bit more out of everything. These are the folks who tend to become good coaches and teachers.

Yeah, like I mentioned in the OP, competition-based arts are a different beast when it comes to ranks. I am actually a green belt in Judo, and have been since 2008, despite training in Judo regularly until 2010, because although I learned all of the curriculum for Shodan, and could demonstrate it on request, I was just not a good competitor. My Judo sensei required you to win (in actual tournaments) around 6 matches out of 10 against people of the rank above you before you could be promoted, IIRC. I have gotten better at throwing people since then, but I haven't competed, and haven't been training directly under a Judo instructor, so there's no rank promotions in my future, and that's okay. I can still incorporate it into my training and teaching. I definitely did get the feeling, though, that if you come in with a low rank and sweep a tournament, it would not be out of the ordinary for you to be promoted on the spot. Heck, I even saw it happen at a tournament, once.

Case in point here. Knows the curriculum for shodan, but due to the competition standards set by that instructor, can't be a shodan. But may in fact have the competence to teach and coach the movements, given the chance.

Both completely valid points, which then leads to the slightly circular argument of do you go back to a slightly differentiated grading system to indicate differences in skill/knowledge level, and you get back to the dan system.

I do know that judo (at least over here) dealt with the competitive issue by having a technical pathway, whereby someone can progress based on knowledge rather than competition results. BJJ does similar (i have found) once people are beyond a certain age (or if they are non competitors) as most people recognise that an athletic 20yr old training 6 days a week is likely to beat most hobbyists (unless a massive skill disparity).

Personally i quite like one of Wastelander's ideas of different level of instructor grade. So you get a white belt, a black belt and then something like a 'junior instructor', 'instructor', 'senior instructor' to reflect the depth of knowledge of the style that can be transferred.

Am also curious if you could implement something 'PhD style' to the 'senior instructor' banding, where someone has to make a contribution to the body of overall knowledge. I am envisaging someone being required to do some cross training and bring back something useful to improve their base style. Could even be that they do a lot of yoga; weight lifting; calisthenics etc. and bring back some strategies for improving the styles warm ups; conditioning work.

That would lead to the continued growth of the style, and with it being people at the 'senior instructor' level they should have a deep enough understanding of the style to identify areas that they can improve on/adapt

[bushido_man96]

I think if you start introducing steps like junior instructor, senior instructor, and beyond, then you get right back to the same issues you have with the dan grades. I do like Noah's idea of an instructor certification, but beyond that, you end up back at the pomp and circumstance that was there before, only now it's the instructors who start thinking highly of themselves over other instructors who haven't reached the same level of "instructorship" that they have.

[DarthPenguin]

I think if you start introducing steps like junior instructor, senior instructor, and beyond, then you get right back to the same issues you have with the dan grades. I do like Noah's idea of an instructor certification, but beyond that, you end up back at the pomp and circumstance that was there before, only now it's the instructors who start thinking highly of themselves over other instructors who haven't reached the same level of "instructorship" that they have.

Thats true.

It's genuinely a tough one (and no right / wrong answer). I can see how in a smaller style, quality control can be more easily maintained and you just have white/black/instructor. It's once things start branching out a little further that i could see the issues creeping in. You can't just go by the strength of the affiliation/main organisation. As an example (am being a little circumspect here deliberately) there is a large bjj entity who have had several world champions (produced some amazing fighters), who would objectively seem to be high standard of belt level. I also know of someone who runs one of their gyms and got their black belt in a very suspect time (one usually only achieved by top of the food chain world champs), and most people on the scene here agree that this individual does not deserve it and is nowhere near the required standard. But the strength of the parent entity makes them seem valid. When the parent entity was smaller it is a lot less likely that they would have slipped through the cracks.

[bushido_man96]

I think you make some good points there. I'm not necessarily against larger organizations, but they do come with their own set of CQ issues.

[ryanryu]

I agree with a lot on this thread, but I want to defend the yudansha system a little bit here.

For the record, I’ve fallen into the same rank situation described here – I was unable to learn the entire Goju curriculum because it was “locked” behind 5th Dan, it was only through sheer luck that I found another Sensei who worked with me to complete the system (because he has the same experience in his youth). So I am not a rank lover and I’m aware of the pitfalls.

But in an idea world, the ranks aren’t just a motivating tool or a goal-setting tool - they are a teaching tool! I don’t think that changes when someone reaches black belt and before doing away with the system I would think carefully about whether this rank structure is helpful for the student.

I can think of two reasons why a curriculum exists – first, to lay out the lesson plan and end goal for the student and second, to help the teacher remember to hit all the major and minor points along the way. For that reason alone, I’d say to keep a yudansha curriculum even if you scrap the yudansha ranks.

Wastelander, you give the example of having difficulty trying to teach grappling in your late Sensei’s dojo because it wasn’t in the curriculum. Having that stuff somewhere in the curriculum ensures it is taught and acts as a reminder for you to circle back to it regularly.

Ok, as for the black belt ranks themselves, I have two branches of thought here –

A) If you are studying a martial art/style into the black belt ranks, at some point you transition from studying the techniques to studying the art. More than just the techniques, you want to internalize the spirit of the art and the strategy it follows too. Again, in a perfect world, those black belt ranks are guiding you down this path and making that transition more natural. I worry that a “System Complete, Find Your Own Way to Study” free-for-all at Shodan wouldn’t lead students towards mastery of their art, just towards a sampling of general martial arts.

To give an example, Goju-ryu is a style of karate. It has many grabbing, grappling, and even throwing techniques… but the end goal is usually to get close and bash the attacker in the head. So while studying judo may help with throwing techniques, it is not going to help with the strategy of Goju. I’d have to take the time to bring those techniques back into my art some way. Would a karateka do this technique the same way as a judoka?

B) Time changes your perspective. One reason I’d argue for having black belt ranks is that it will, paradoxically, guide the student to the realization that belts are not the be-all-end-all of training. Could you see this when you first got your shodan? A few yudansha ranks provide time for the student to adjust their perspective and realize the depth of their art or the martial arts. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the group on this forum has all arrived at the same conclusion – the rank is just a rank – but we had time to get there on our own. Would it work as well forcing your students there immediately?

A well-structured curriculum and an instructor whose heart is in the right place could use a few yudansha ranks (maybe three? maybe five?) to give the student time to digest and “own” the material while also providing some guardrails to their study.

[Wastelander]

I've seen a lot of comments mentioning cross-training, which is great! I actually do require that students testing for black belt must go out and learn a form from another style, and be able to demonstrate application for it. I also take competitive fighting, like MMA matches, into consideration for grading.

I agree with a lot on this thread, but I want to defend the yudansha system a little bit here.

For the record, I’ve fallen into the same rank situation described here – I was unable to learn the entire Goju curriculum because it was “locked” behind 5th Dan, it was only through sheer luck that I found another Sensei who worked with me to complete the system (because he has the same experience in his youth). So I am not a rank lover and I’m aware of the pitfalls.

But in an idea world, the ranks aren’t just a motivating tool or a goal-setting tool - they are a teaching tool! I don’t think that changes when someone reaches black belt and before doing away with the system I would think carefully about whether this rank structure is helpful for the student.

I can think of two reasons why a curriculum exists – first, to lay out the lesson plan and end goal for the student and second, to help the teacher remember to hit all the major and minor points along the way. For that reason alone, I’d say to keep a yudansha curriculum even if you scrap the yudansha ranks.

Wastelander, you give the example of having difficulty trying to teach grappling in your late Sensei’s dojo because it wasn’t in the curriculum. Having that stuff somewhere in the curriculum ensures it is taught and acts as a reminder for you to circle back to it regularly.

Ok, as for the black belt ranks themselves, I have two branches of thought here –

A) If you are studying a martial art/style into the black belt ranks, at some point you transition from studying the techniques to studying the art. More than just the techniques, you want to internalize the spirit of the art and the strategy it follows too. Again, in a perfect world, those black belt ranks are guiding you down this path and making that transition more natural. I worry that a “System Complete, Find Your Own Way to Study” free-for-all at Shodan wouldn’t lead students towards mastery of their art, just towards a sampling of general martial arts.

To give an example, Goju-ryu is a style of karate. It has many grabbing, grappling, and even throwing techniques… but the end goal is usually to get close and bash the attacker in the head. So while studying judo may help with throwing techniques, it is not going to help with the strategy of Goju. I’d have to take the time to bring those techniques back into my art some way. Would a karateka do this technique the same way as a judoka?

B) Time changes your perspective. One reason I’d argue for having black belt ranks is that it will, paradoxically, guide the student to the realization that belts are not the be-all-end-all of training. Could you see this when you first got your shodan? A few yudansha ranks provide time for the student to adjust their perspective and realize the depth of their art or the martial arts. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the group on this forum has all arrived at the same conclusion – the rank is just a rank – but we had time to get there on our own. Would it work as well forcing your students there immediately?

A well-structured curriculum and an instructor whose heart is in the right place could use a few yudansha ranks (maybe three? maybe five?) to give the student time to digest and “own” the material while also providing some guardrails to their study.

I suppose my question would be, "how do ranks accomplish what you're proposing?"

With point A, it sounds as though the concern is that once someone reaches Shodan that there is nothing more to learn from the instructor, or no additional guidance from the instructor, unless there are additional ranks above Shodan. I don't personally believe that the ranks are necessary for continued learning and guidance.

With point B, I think you hit the nail on the head with your very first sentence--TIME is the important thing. How do ranks change your perspective in a way that time, itself, does not? Especially if you require the full curriculum for Shodan, which would mean that it takes longer to achieve that rank, in the first place?