American Karate

[Kirves]

Well, side thrust and roundhouse are definitely old. Centuries old. They are just not found or used much in styles which were designed for armor, but in styles/areas where armor wasn't used, they are commonplace. Ridgehand and jab are also basic karate stuff. Ridgehand is just ura shuto (ura=reverse, shuto=knifehand). There can only be reverse punch when there is the leading punch too, otherwise the whole word "reverse punch" would be an oxymoron.

 

It is true that these techniques are only found in katas and old prearranged kumites after a few years of training, so unless you have reached black belt level or near it (brown, maybe blue) in a traditional art, you wouldn't know it.

 

Remember, there are people in the world who train traditional arts that did not come filtered through the US. I have studied a style here in Finland that came directly from Okinawa, no roundtrip through US, the style is only now beginning to spread to the American continent (and slowly too). The style also does not do tournaments because of it's traditions. It has all those techniques in it's katas. The style is very proud of it's lineage of unchanged katas and techniques for over a century.

 

PS. In Okinawan karate side thrust was not used, thus you are correct about that. But in Korean arts (like Taegeyk) and Chinese arts (like Kungfu) it was common.

[bustr]

"Well, side thrust and roundhouse are definitely old. Centuries old. They are just not found or used much in styles which were designed for armor"

 

Karate is a civilian art

 

"But in Korean arts (like Taegeyk) and Chinese arts (like Kungfu) it was common."

 

Proof? Neither The Bubishi nor the Chapasarat (Muay Thai) contain these kicks. And I've seen no Chinese manuals with them either. The traditional TaeKYon I've seen uses forward stomps and back heel trips with no lateral kicking. However lateral kicks are well documented in French Savate; Spinning kicks in Danmye and Kapwara.

[Kirves]

"Well, side thrust and roundhouse are definitely old. Centuries old. They are just not found or used much in styles which were designed for armor"

 

Karate is a civilian art

 

"But in Korean arts (like Taegeyk) and Chinese arts (like Kungfu) it was common."

 

Proof? Neither The Bubishi nor the Chapasarat (Muay Thai) contain these kicks. And I've seen no Chinese manuals with them either. The traditional TaeKYon I've seen uses forward stomps and back heel trips with no lateral kicking. However lateral kicks are well documented in French Savate; Spinning kicks in Danmye and Kapwara.

 

Yes, Okinawan Karate was a civilian art, but I thought this discussion had already spread over art/country boundaries as we deduced that an "American Karate" doesn't have to have much to do with Okinawan Karate anyway (I myself said these kicks weren't in Okinawan Karate).

 

About Kungfu, I just say, go see some more kungfu books from your local library. There are hundreds of Kungfu styles. In at least dozens or even hundreds of them these kicks are found. Or heck, go see a Chackie Chan flick.

 

And Bubishi: it is just the notes of one Kungfu style transported to some Okinawan masters.

[bustr]

"About Kungfu, I just say, go see some more kungfu books from your local library. There are hundreds of Kungfu styles. In at least dozens or even hundreds of them these kicks are found. Or heck, go see a Chackie Chan flick."

 

I'll have to see a source that predates any contact with France before I'll be convinced that these kicks are Asian in origin.

[karatekid1975]

americankarategal,

 

You said in an earlier post that your instructor was big into technique and forms (kata). An easy way to find out what style he studied is by the kata. What are the names of your kata? I don't do American Karate, but I know enough about other styles to pin-point what style has what kata. I dabbled in other arts, study/ied two, and I do a lot of research. I can help some if you'd like

[americankarategal]

That's the odd part of all this and what has about made me decide we have no tradition...He makes the katas up and those of us in the blackbelts course are in the process of building one now. I am really interested in learning the traditional katas also...I don't think it would be that hard to learn(with the right resources)..I do know the different techniques...I know should have a high repect for our sensei', but all the research I have put into my after-school classes that I teach...he is now taking and implementing into his BLACKBELT classes and that to me is somewhat disrespectful to me..I feel he should have already taught me these things if he expected me teach a class on my own....I am certain if I put my 10 yellow belts against his 10 of his green - brown in a trivia/technique in kata sparring or board breaking...and especially terminology and facts...we would overcome them easily.. I am not in anyway trying to boast...just stating that I feel like something is not quit right...If you can help me in anyway please do it will be greatly appreciated...

[Kirves]

I'll have to see a source that predates any contact with France before I'll be convinced that these kicks are Asian in origin.

 

The damn French were probably teaching the Five Elders of Shaolin! I knew there was somethin' rotten in that story!

[ginge1980]

sounds to me that there may be more to this than meets the eye

 

your sensei is giving you the runnaround there seems to be a history between him and his sensei,this and the fact that he's using your teaching to supplement his own does not sit right at all.

 

i think you should be very careful . most experienced sensei change and adapt kata but they still use the theme of what they were taught ,i hav'nt heard of many just" making it up as they go along"(to quote monty python).

[omnifinite]

How old is your instructor?

 

When I hear about instructors scrapping all the old katas and starting from scratch, I don't think of them as being "modern" and "innovative"... I think of them being short-sighted and egotistical and doing something for 5 or 10 years and thinking, "I can do better than this," without really understanding what they've been doing in the first place. In a lot of cases they've missed almost the entire point.

[americankarategal]

My sensei' is 33 years old, he had trained in martial arts for 4 years, got his blackbelt in Jan. 1999 and opened his dojo in Sept.1999. Like I said in one of the above posts he is a great point fighter and his kata are interesting but I agree with you that they should be derived from traditional kata. The names of our kata are basic 1-3, and competition 1-2, but alot of people make up their own moves to add to what he made. I would like to learn the traditional kata and even teach it to my after-school course that I teach....how hard do you think it would be to train myself..what resourses would you recommend?

 

Thank you for your input