The Terminology of Kata: Bunkai, Oyo, Henka (and more)

[Miick 11]

Agree ! ....... Thoughts ? Awesome .

I'd like to know your thoughts on Japanese terms for basic single moves . Here is a good one

' Gedan - barai ' ...... that translates to ' downward block' ......... yeah ?

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.

I am assuming (?) that with the wink there that you already know the answer to the question you ask...but gedan barai is an interesting point to discuss. Maybe others might find it interesting...

So, gedan bari (下段払い) translates to lower level (gedan) sweep or sweeping motion (bari). Could it be a "block" of some kind? Sure, I guess it could. But, in going by the translation of the name? Not necessarily.

It's also interesting to note that the same general movement is also called gedan ude uke (下段腕受け or 下段腕受ける - sorry, I am rusty). So, in this case it is a lower level arm receiver. Would folks consider this to be the same as the lower level sweep of gedan barai? I don't know for sure. Certainly, gedan barai could just be a description of the movement itself (which is another can of worms to open). But I don't necessarily think that it is. I could most certainly see two totally distinct categories of techniques here.

As an interesting side note to this from my aikijutsu days and ashi bari (足払い). This is commonly translated as "foot sweep". And, technically (based on the translation) correct. BUT...it can also mean leg sweep. When training with a very high ranking shihan in aikijutsu, he explained to the class to not just get caught up in ashi barai being soley a "foot" sweep as it could be any part of our foot OR leg used to unbalance and/or take down an opponent. It can also be used as an irimi (入り身) or entering technique. He then told us to go play with this...and I have been doing so now for a number of years. Interesting thought though...

[Miick 11]

tatsujin wrote:

At the outset, let me say (for the sake of bushido_man96 and anyone else reading this), my comments and questions below are not ment in any way to necessarily disagree with or question what he (bushido_man96) has said. I like to ask questions...because questions (and the resulting answers) helps me better understand. Sometimes, when I question things, people will think I am in disagreement with them or what they have said. Not necessarily always the case...

 

You sound like me !

 

ya know, back in my youth shotokan days , not much made sense so I asked about it . I was eventually told " Its rude to ask questions ."

 

Most of the time I think it was because they did not know the answers themselves !

tatsujin wrote:

When you say that you don't delve too much into form or kata applications, does that also mean that you don't do much work with individual katas themselves? Or does that mean that you have katas and you do them, but you don't do much work on the application side?

I ask the question above because it initially reminds me of my Shotokan days. In class, after bowing in and doing our warmups, we would then begin to work on various techniques. Whatever the sensei that night want to do (and based on the skill level of the class). After a bit, we would work on kata. Randomly we would have a bit of bunkai (incorrectly used...it was really oyo). So at this level, there was a little bit of a connection from the kata to the techniques we had been working on. But, the most importance was placed on the performance and look of the kata. Then, on most nights, we would finish up with sparring (free sparring with pads...jiyu-kumite - 自由組手). What was interesting was that when we were doing the free sparring, it really did not at all resemble the techniques we were doing in the basics. The kicks were probably the closest match. But, the punching was much different. Hands held different. The actual punch itself was delivered different...as was the starting point of the punch as virtually everyone was in some form of "Western boxing stance". For a long time, I just really wondered why there were, essentially, three (3) different categories of work and none of them really crossed over much to the other or built upon each other.

That ^ aways amused me . Still does . First time I hit my instructor with an uppercut (because it was the most obvious, closest and most direct technique - 'opportunity ' - to present itself ) he had no idea where it came from or what happened .

 

Very stuck 'in the box' . Every punch delivered seems a "Jun - tzuki " . He says to someone ; " Punch! " and they automatically do Jun-tsuki ( even though they and him do not know what that means ) . He says to me , inviting me to punch him , "Punch! "

 

And I used to say ' What type of punch ? " ... and no one seemed to know what I meant ?

 

 

Not sure what is going on in karate sometimes ! Well, I am actually but it took several years of studying some intricate inside revelations about Japanese culture before I did .

 

I heard the same from 'Jessie - Karate Nerd ' on video ; he is warming up before training in Japan . He does some punching warming up and the Japanese students are watching and ... " OOOOOO ... boxing ! " , " He bring boxing into it ! " Jessie gave that as an example of 'what is wrong with karate' .

 

People punch different in kumite as the other way DOES NOT WORK ! Mostly becasue they have no concept of what 'the other way' is supposed to be used for .

 

A good example is people attacking using the other hand in a hitake movement . You soon learn NOT to do that in a fight , (unless you are using the technique correctly ) . Even my 'instructor' doesnt get it . I had to show him ;

 

Me ; "Punch ! " - he does a Jun-tsuki and retracts opposite hand to hip .

 

Me : " Show me beginning of Seisan ." ..... stop . Now, that series of punches you did then, you had your other arm up and forward in a head guard , why ? "

 

Him ; " That's the way its done . "

 

.... < sigh > .....

 

Me: "Okay then , punch my hand ." I offer my right palm , he steps in and whacks it with a right Jun-tsuki ... HARD .... ( just to show me , but this isnt the point at all ) and retracts his other hand to hip . I smack him upside the head with my other hand , he does not like that at all . Now I say , "Punch my hand again with a ' Seisan punch' ."

 

He steps in, punches my hand with a right and his left us held up protecting his head . I go to slap him upside his head with my other hand and with a minimal movement of his non punching arm he easily deflects it . Then I ask , "So, why do you punch and teach people to punch and attack always with Jun-tsuki ? " He thought about it . 2 weeks later, new student , he teaching them to punch 'properly' , only the one punch and its Jun-tsuki again !

 

Ho-hum .

tatsujin wrote:

So, after my long story, I am just curious to know if you do work kata and don't do much or any work on the applications or oyo from the kata then why do the kata? Again, assuming this is the case (you do kata, but not applications of or from the kata), what value do you find from the kata /

Sorry if I am bouncing off your questions to someone else .

I have noticed Okinawans LUV kata . Just the kata itself it doesnt even have to mean aything , they just love watching it . Of course, the Masters , are different : Hohan Soken was impressed with WATCHING Americans do kata when he went to USA ... until he asked them for their explanations , 'break down' . Someone observed he appeared to be laughing. Later he told them ; ' You do beautiful kata , but it break my heart , you do kata.... but you dont know why . "

 

He did go on to show some his understanding of it .... but they just sorta ignored that and went on the way it evolved to become . Soken also asked them " How you get 3 , 4 even 5 degree black belt here ? people come study Okinawa , we give a few maybe one or two dan . They no come back study ! How you get 5 Dan in America ? " That was met with an embarrassed silence .

 

tatsujin wrote:

When you refer to not using Japanese terminology, I can understand that from the point of it being confusing to some...especially for beginners. But, do you (as an instructor) find any benefit from it? I find that actually understanding the actual translation of the Japanese names and/or terms helps me to understand what the earlier generations and founders ment as opposed to how it is viewed today (like uke being a block). The Japanese (and Chinese) are well known for "hiding things in plain site". Alot can be "hidden" in the words and names given to things. Additionally, alot can be lost when an interpretation or translation of something is incorrect or only partially correct.

Again, thanks for your comments! As before, I look forward to your response when you get a chance.

I find my teaching is entirely UNsuitable in a regular karate class . Perhaps only for special 'seminars' . Its a bit challenging for most .

[tatsujin]

I have noticed Okinawans LUV kata . Just the kata itself it doesnt even have to mean aything , they just love watching it . Of course, the Masters , are different : Hohan Soken was impressed with WATCHING Americans do kata when he went to USA ... until he asked them for their explanations , 'break down' . Someone observed he appeared to be laughing. Later he told them ; ' You do beautiful kata , but it break my heart , you do kata.... but you dont know why . "

He did go on to show some his understanding of it .... but they just sorta ignored that and went on the way it evolved to become . Soken also asked them " How you get 3 , 4 even 5 degree black belt here ? people come study Okinawa , we give a few maybe one or two dan . They no come back study ! How you get 5 Dan in America ? " That was met with an embarrassed silence .

I am sorry that I had trouble following alot of what you posted due to, I assume, was technical difficulties you were having in quoting and replying. But, the above did jump out at me and I wanted to reply to a couple of points that might be relevant here.

First, I have generally found that alot of martial artists (especially those in the West) are "collectors" of katas. It is almost more important to be able to talk about how many katas you know or variations of katas or katas from a specific teacher than it is to know and/or understand the principles that are being taught in the katas.

White crane (白鶴) is a good example of that. I was around when that was the big fad among Okinawan martial artists (especially Goju-ryu). And it was like different kata were being passed around and traded like baseball cards.

Most of the historical martial arts leaders or founders prior to 1900 didn't teach that many kata in the first place. And, they very often seemed to give different people different kata. Now, we end up with some variants of Shotokan having like 25 of them. Shito-ryu has something like 50 kata in their system!

Also, Soken is an interesting aspect to the martial arts as they developed in Okinawa and then spread out to the rest of the world. Since he went to Argentina in 1924 and did not return to Okinawa until 1952, he "missed" much of the changes made to the art and was, by all apparent sources less concerned about ranks and titles. Much of what I was told was that the instructors in Okinawa (after WWII), ended up promoting many American (or Western) people to ranks much higher than they would someone who was Okinawan (or Japanese). The main reasoning was that this person was going to leave and be a representative of the style in another country. The implication was that they would continue their training and that would include coming back to Okinawa for more and ongoing training. Some of the thought there was that who would want a nidan or sandan opening up a dojo in the US and being the representative of the art? It would be "better" if that person was a godan (or higher) and then said person would "grow" into that rank and then continue to progress. I am NOT saying that all Americans (or ALL Westerners in general) fall into this category of people. But, I do believe that many of them do.

A good example of this is someone that I trained with and under. In training in Goju-ryu, he was a nidan (2nd degree black belt) that was preparing to test for sandan. He ended up stopping his training with his then sensei (who was a godan or 5th degree black belt) and switched to a Japanese based Goju organization and immediately became a yondan (or 4th degree). After a few more years, he switched over to a different Okinawan organization and became a shichidan (7th degree black belt) along with a kyoshi license. All of this happened in a relatively short period of time (in "karate years" anyway). His instructor in Goju-ryu that was a 5th dan when all of this started? He is still alive and actively training and teaching Goju-ryu...in the same organization as when this all started...and he is graded at 8th dan. So, my friend has all but caught his original instructor...primarily through hoping, skipping and jumping through different organizations that were willing to hand out different ranks. This is NOT to say that my friend is not a competent martial artist. He is. Just a quick story to try and point out that many Okinawan (and Japanese) take a different level of importance to rank (and titles) than Americans do. And...rank does not necessarily equate to what we think it does.

OK, rambling again so I will quit.

[Miick 11]

A bit rushed for time at the moment , but a quick question :

The terms you cited re blocks , their names . Thats Japanese yeah ?

How did they get those names ? Are they translations from Okinawan or tier own terms .

anyone know the Okinawan names of those techniques ?

[tatsujin]

A bit rushed for time at the moment , but a quick question :

The terms you cited re blocks , their names . Thats Japanese yeah ?

How did they get those names ? Are they translations from Okinawan or tier own terms .

anyone know the Okinawan names of those techniques ?

By and large, the terms are Japanese. The Okinawan language (at least one of them...primarily spoken in the central and southern region/islands...I think there are a total of 6 or 7 actual languages spoken throughout Okinawa) is Uchināguchi (沖縄口).

Most people in Okinawa speak Japanese except for a contingent of older folks. Actually, the language is danger of dying out in the next decade or so unless something is done to keep it alive.

Most martial arts these days on Okinawa (at least in my experience) are taught in Japanese. There are some terms like chinkuchi (チンクチ), gamaku (ガマ) and others that are the actual Okinawan terms as opposed to Japanese.

Here are a few examples that I had handy in my note taking software. Obviously there are more, but I don't have them handy:

Punch - chichi [or chikei] (tsuki)

Straight punch – chichidi (tsuki-te)

Clenched fist – tijikun (seiken)

Back-fist - ura tijikun (ura-seiken)

Hammer-fist - uchidi (uchi-te) [usually called “tettsui-uchi” in Japanese]

Sword hand - tigatana (shuto)

Spear-hand - nuchidi (nukite)

Back-hand uradi (ura-te) [usually called “kaishu uchi” in Japanese]

Forearm strike - udi-uchi (ude-uchi) 

Pulling-hand - fichidi (hiki-te)

Elbow strike - hijigee ati (hiji ate)

Kick – giri (geri)

Front kick - mee giri (mae geri)

Side kick - yuku-giri (yoko geri)

Back kick - kushi giri (koshi geri)

Knee kick - chinshi giri

Toe kick - iibi zaachi giri

Naihanchi kick - naifanchi-giri (naihanchi-geri)

Reception [block] - uki (uke)

High reception - wii uki (ue-uke)

Rising reception - aji uki (age-uke)

Down reception - hicha-uki (shita-uke)

Outside reception - fuka-uki (hoka-uke)

Inside reception - naaka uki (naka uke), uchi uki (uchi uke)

Heavy-sticky – muchimi (mochimi)

Heavy hands - ti nu umumi (te no omomi...something along the lines of iron palm)

Changing hand - findi or finrii (henshu)

Hopefully, that is of some help to you.

[tatsujin]

A bit rushed for time at the moment , but a quick question :

The terms you cited re blocks , their names . Thats Japanese yeah ?

How did they get those names ? Are they translations from Okinawan or tier own terms .

anyone know the Okinawan names of those techniques ?

I should also add that quite some time ago, there was an interesting project created by Dr. Samantha May in Okinawa. It was called:

"Uchinaanchu nu Tuudi tu Tegua"

(Okinawan Karate and Kobudo Handbook - 沖縄語の空手と古武道のハンドブック)

It was far from complete, but was very interesting. I have reached out to Dr. May on a few occasions. The email never seems to bounce, but I never got a response. I was trying to see if this was being carried on or if someone else had picked it up. The version that I have seems to be about 8 years old.

I can post up the version that I have, but I don't think I am allowed to share a link like that. There are no copyright notices that I see as a part of the document. But, if you search a bit, I am sure it can be found with moderate Google-fu skills.

Hope that helps.

[bushido_man96]

I don't delve too much into using Japanese terminology, so I avoid all those issues by using English in my classes. I will usually just use the terms "self-defense" or "applications" depending on what we are working on. Unfortunately, we don't delve much into forms applications in our school. We weren't "raised" with it, so to speak. I do try to work on it when I get a chance to do so.

Thanks for the response!

At the outset, let me say (for the sake of bushido_man96 and anyone else reading this), my comments and questions below are not ment in any way to necessarily disagree with or question what he (bushido_man96) has said. I like to ask questions...because questions (and the resulting answers) helps me better understand. Sometimes, when I question things, people will think I am in disagreement with them or what they have said. Not necessarily always the case...

All good with me! I don't mind some disagreement...after all, we won't always agree on everything as people in general (and I know you and I have already had some disagreements, which is ok!).

When you say that you don't delve too much into form or kata applications, does that also mean that you don't do much work with individual katas themselves? Or does that mean that you have katas and you do them, but you don't do much work on the application side?

So, I could get into the history of TKD, but I will not do that. Instead, a little of my own MA history. I started my career in the American Taekwondo Association (ATA...yep, that organization), and earned a rank of 2nd degree black belt, along with an instructor certification. I owned a school for a short period of time. When I moved away from home, I joined a different school, Sun Yi's Academy, which is in the Traditional Taekwondo Association (TTA).

The ATA has it's own set of forms that were created and trademarked for use only by the ATA and it's affiliate clubs and schools. The forms are set up as testing requirements, and with that in mind, the forms reflect the basic movements learned at each belt rank. They are great for progressively challenging the student's physical abilities, and aside from some possible sparring combinations in pieces of the forms, they weren't designed with self-defense applications in mind. We had one form per belt rank, along with assigned one-steps, etc.

When I joined Sun Yi's Academy, the organization used (and still uses) most of the Chang-On forms, which the ITF uses (with some differences, most notably, the absence of sine wave). Anyone who has done and seen the ITF forms, and has researched any at all into some Karate forms, most notably Shotokan, one can see similarities in some of the move sequences in the ITF forms. Gen. Choi had training in Shotokan Karate, so this is not shocking. A common theme of late has been to study up on the Karate applications of these segments of the forms, or of individual moves, and do some reverse engineering so-to-speak of some applications of these moves or segments of moves, based on what others have learned and shared. I've read several books on the subject matter, and I find most of it to be fairly relatable, and at least worth learning and trying to apply.

With all that said, I did not learn these applications from any of my own instructors while learning the forms. The forms, one per rank in the TTA as well, were part of the rank requirements, and we trained them as such; attain technical proficiency in the moves sufficient to meet the standards of passing the test. None of my instructors were taught these applications, and therefore none were passed on. Instead, self-defense was learned as a separate part of the training curriculum (and unfortunately, not a focus). So I don't get to spend entire classes breaking down forms applications and training them. I have to single out a partner willing to work with me on it, and train it that way.

I ask the question above because it initially reminds me of my Shotokan days. In class, after bowing in and doing our warmups, we would then begin to work on various techniques. Whatever the sensei that night want to do (and based on the skill level of the class). After a bit, we would work on kata. Randomly we would have a bit of bunkai (incorrectly used...it was really oyo). So at this level, there was a little bit of a connection from the kata to the techniques we had been working on. But, the most importance was placed on the performance and look of the kata. Then, on most nights, we would finish up with sparring (free sparring with pads...jiyu-kumite - 自由組手). What was interesting was that when we were doing the free sparring, it really did not at all resemble the techniques we were doing in the basics. The kicks were probably the closest match. But, the punching was much different. Hands held different. The actual punch itself was delivered different...as was the starting point of the punch as virtually everyone was in some form of "Western boxing stance". For a long time, I just really wondered why there were, essentially, three (3) different categories of work and none of them really crossed over much to the other or built upon each other.

Most of my classes were the exact same, minus the oyo session. Basics, forms, one-steps, and then sparring. In the ATA, it was a point sparring ruleset that allowed no punches to the head. In the TTA, it's been similar, but using the Olympic ruleset (another curiosity).

So, after my long story, I am just curious to know if you do work kata and don't do much or any work on the applications or oyo from the kata then why do the kata? Again, assuming this is the case (you do kata, but not applications of or from the kata), what value do you find from the kata?

We do forms work, but no applications work, at least not as part of the structure of the class. You have to understand, though, that I was "raised" this way in my MA upbringing, so didn't know any different until I started learning about "bunkai" later in life. I still found value in the forms, in the pursuit of technical proficiency, and I always enjoyed forms competition. Now, when I do forms, I think more about possible applications.

When you refer to not using Japanese terminology, I can understand that from the point of it being confusing to some...especially for beginners. But, do you (as an instructor) find any benefit from it? I find that actually understanding the actual translation of the Japanese names and/or terms helps me to understand what the earlier generations and founders ment as opposed to how it is viewed today (like uke being a block). The Japanese (and Chinese) are well known for "hiding things in plain site". Alot can be "hidden" in the words and names given to things. Additionally, alot can be lost when an interpretation or translation of something is incorrect or only partially correct.

Being mostly a TKD practitioner, we use Korean terminology. A similar term in Korean would be Hae Sul, which I'll use at times, but I'd rather use English terminology, to avoid confusion and make myself more easily understood.

So, that's me, in a nutshell.

[tatsujin]

Thanks for the detailed response bushido_man96, I really appreciate it!

Among all that you said, one thing kind of smacked me in the head a bit...

I was not aware that a kata (poomsae) could be trademarked! That is very interesting. I wonder if they have ever tried to enforce that in court? I only say that because the individual moves within the form are certainly not original to them. So, I guess they were granted the trademark based on the order in which you perform them...along with the direction...interesting...

Again, the above is just something very minor. I do appreciate your reply. At one point, my Shotokan rank was recognized or "duplicated" in TKD. I'll have to go dig them out and remind myself who they were issued by.

Thanks again!

[Miick 11]

A bit rushed for time at the moment , but a quick question :

The terms you cited re blocks , their names . Thats Japanese yeah ?

How did they get those names ? Are they translations from Okinawan or tier own terms .

anyone know the Okinawan names of those techniques ?

By and large, the terms are Japanese. The Okinawan language (at least one of them...primarily spoken in the central and southern region/islands...I think there are a total of 6 or 7 actual languages spoken throughout Okinawa) is Uchināguchi (沖縄口).

Most people in Okinawa speak Japanese except for a contingent of older folks. Actually, the language is danger of dying out in the next decade or so unless something is done to keep it alive.

Most martial arts these days on Okinawa (at least in my experience) are taught in Japanese. There are some terms like chinkuchi (チンクチ), gamaku (ガマ) and others that are the actual Okinawan terms as opposed to Japanese.

Here are a few examples that I had handy in my note taking software. Obviously there are more, but I don't have them handy:

Punch - chichi [or chikei] (tsuki)

Straight punch – chichidi (tsuki-te)

Clenched fist – tijikun (seiken)

Back-fist - ura tijikun (ura-seiken)

Hammer-fist - uchidi (uchi-te) [usually called “tettsui-uchi” in Japanese]

Sword hand - tigatana (shuto)

Spear-hand - nuchidi (nukite)

Back-hand uradi (ura-te) [usually called “kaishu uchi” in Japanese]

Forearm strike - udi-uchi (ude-uchi) 

Pulling-hand - fichidi (hiki-te)

Elbow strike - hijigee ati (hiji ate)

Kick – giri (geri)

Front kick - mee giri (mae geri)

Side kick - yuku-giri (yoko geri)

Back kick - kushi giri (koshi geri)

Knee kick - chinshi giri

Toe kick - iibi zaachi giri

Naihanchi kick - naifanchi-giri (naihanchi-geri)

Reception [block] - uki (uke)

High reception - wii uki (ue-uke)

Rising reception - aji uki (age-uke)

Down reception - hicha-uki (shita-uke)

Outside reception - fuka-uki (hoka-uke)

Inside reception - naaka uki (naka uke), uchi uki (uchi uke)

Heavy-sticky – muchimi (mochimi)

Heavy hands - ti nu umumi (te no omomi...something along the lines of iron palm)

Changing hand - findi or finrii (henshu)

Hopefully, that is of some help to you.

Certainly is ! Thankyou ...... 'reception', 'to receive ' - seems the opposite of 'block' .

This is all significant and I will get back to you on it . I am just navigating through some other issues first .

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for the detailed response bushido_man96, I really appreciate it!

Among all that you said, one thing kind of smacked me in the head a bit...

I was not aware that a kata (poomsae) could be trademarked! That is very interesting. I wonder if they have ever tried to enforce that in court? I only say that because the individual moves within the form are certainly not original to them. So, I guess they were granted the trademark based on the order in which you perform them...along with the direction...interesting...

Again, the above is just something very minor. I do appreciate your reply. At one point, my Shotokan rank was recognized or "duplicated" in TKD. I'll have to go dig them out and remind myself who they were issued by.

Thanks again!

So, I don't the exact details, but this is my best guess. The ATA, after it was founded, began formulating it's own forms. I would say that it is the entire sequences that were trademarked for use solely by the ATA and it's affiliates for teaching and testing purposes. I understand why they did it, based off my experience with other schools.

Take my current school: we use the Chang On forms, used in the ITF. But, we don't use them all, and if you were to watch videos of how we do the forms side by side with how someone like DWx and her school does them, you'd see some very marked differences. And if I wanted to go start my own school tomorrow, I could use those forms as well, even if I broke away from the organization. The ITF doesn't have a trademark on them to prevent anyone else form using them; much like the way Karate forms show up in various styles with some differences.

The ATA doesn't have to worry about this. It also helps the ATA in training it's instructors, and also adds a measure of quality control to the performance of the forms. I knew that I could go to any ATA school in the nation, and if they asked me to perform one of the poomsae, I know I'm doing the same form.

I'm not saying the ATA has the best approach to forms training. Just explaining it as I understood it from my time training in the organization.