Has anyone dabbled in Koryu Uchinadi (KU)?

[username19853]

In case anyones wondering, I’m talking about Patrick McCarthys Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo Jutsu.

My dojo used to be affiliated with him, so there was a period of time that we trained all (or at least most) of the KU curriculum, alongside Shorin Ryu kata and Yakusoku Kumite developed by Shoshin Nagamine (Matsubayashi). Fortunately or unfortunately, the dojo is no longer affiliated and only bits of the KU stuff will pop up in class from time to time. The focus is now back on bunkai directly from the kata.

Anyway, I never liked the KU training until a day came when I was “attacked” in high school (years ago). My attacker threw a punch at me, I caught it and performed a hip throw. It all happened so quick, and my movements came directly from one of the KU waza’s that I had been working on for my next belt. Since then, without studying KU too much, I’ve always assumed that it has benefits that are practical for self defense.

Has anyone ever trained in Koryu Uchinadi?

What did you think?

Do you still practice KU?

Would you do it if you could?

If you’ve done it, would you do it again?

[tatsujin]

I have known Patrick for some 30-odd years now. I don't remember the first time that he and I first interacted.

"Funny story"....back in the day when everything on the interwebs was basically done through mailing lists, Patrick and I really didn't get along too well. I don't even really remember the specifics about it now it has been so long ago. But, it was over vital points (kyusho - 急所) and the overall application of Traditional Chinese Medicine (Zhongyi - 中醫) to martial arts. Anyway, back in the early 90s, I was living in Pasadena, TX just outside of Houston. Patrick was coming to the US from Australia for a series of seminars. Apparently, someone had reached out to him to come to Houston for a round of seminars. So, he didn't verify anything or get any payment ahead of time. When he got to Houston (and checked into a "nice" hotel), whoever this was ghosted him. Ouch! I saw him post about it online and told him to give me a call. He did. I ended up inviting him to my home (apartment), telling him that he was welcome to the second bedroom I had for as long as he needed. Apparently, he was going to be stuck here for about a week. He was, obviously, hesitant to do so, but he finally agreed to come by and ended up staying with me. We actually had a pretty good time. We talked forever, shared some nice meals and adult beverages, etc. Later I found out that he still thought I was the person behind getting him to Houston and screwing him over. He still thinks this as far as I know. The last time I reached out to him, he told me as much. Oh well...

Essentially, what Patrick teaches with Koryu Uchinadi as the vehicle is a sogo bujutsu (総合武術). Essentially, this means a comprehensive or integrated martial art. In this case it is grappling (ground and standing), percussive type striking, weapons and kata. More or less what karate (what he calls Uchinadi - 沖縄手 - Okinawa Te) was in the 1800's and earlier...before the art was "modernized" for the move into the school system and mainland Japan. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Actually, the art that I do is very much similar to this...or at least built upon the same general foundation.

We can debate the whole pre-1900 changes to Okinawan based combative arts. And, sometimes that is fun to do. But, in my opinion, what Patrick is doing at a 10,000 foot level makes "karate" more effective. Hence, the story that you tell about using the hip throw. In now approaching 50 years of martial arts experience, I can tell you that many, if not most, karateka would have a problem pulling off something like that. For example, I have a yondan (4th degree black belt) in Shotokan. You'd be hard pressed to find too many Shotokan yudansha that have any training in grappling...or really anything outside of punching and kicking for the most part.

I can tell you that Patrick is the real deal skill-wise. He knows what he is doing, he has a ton of experience in doing it and he will thump you pretty good. Additionally, he is probably the best known or at least certainly one of the best known Western karatekas. His writings have done a great deal to propel the arts worldwide, draw new students in and also broaden the overall knowledge base of those training. Probably the only really negative thing I can say about Patrick is that he does sometimes come off as someone who really likes the sound of his own voice...lol. But, in all fairness, he has referenced how he knows and uses NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) and, as one who has studied that as well, I can see what he is doing with that as a part of the learning/teaching transmission process. So, that might not be a totally fair assumption or statement.

I don't know what Patrick charges to be a part of his organization or what he charges to be a shibu or jun shibu dojo (a chartered school or transitioning school respectively), but I would not think it is too much. The products that he sells (videos mainly) are not overly expensive and many are available at a reduced price as direct downloads (or at least they were). Granted, I can't tell you about any other costs or requirements. But, from what I can see it is not being run as a strictly money making endeavor (like many arts and organizations are these days).

I have personally learned a great deal from Patrick both personally and indirectly. I would expect that I probably will in the future. I would have no issues with anyone training in Koryu Uchinadi. I would recommend his training over much or even most of what is being offered out there nowadays.

Having never personally trained with him in a sensei/deshi relationship or officially in Koryu Uchinadi, I don't know if this will have direct relationship to your questions. But, I hope you do find it somewhat helpful.

[username19853]

Tatsujin, thank you so much for your response! Your wisdom and experience has really shines through all the answers you’ve provided me.

I struggled with who Patrick McCarthy was for a long time. My initial impression of him was an overly egotistic, overly confident man who loved listening to himself ramble on. I’ve listened to a few podcasts where he’s a guest and I’ve ALWAYS caught myself thinking, “is he even going to give the other person a chance to speak???”

However. The man has absolutely earned his right to ramble on. I’ve never heard of NLP, but regardless, he has a wealth of knowledge to share that anyone, regardless of style, would greatly benefit from listening to. It goes without saying that it probably requires patience to be a student of his, but I’d still kill for the opportunity. Along with Noah Legal and Iain Abernathy - I rank all 3 of them as equals. Simply because Noah also studies Shorin Ryu, I’d probably choose him as my Sensei if I could. Lol.

Although your answer didn’t have a direct relationship to my questions, I still found it highly insightful. Im happy to have read what you had to share and it really did affect how I view him as an individual.

Thank you!

[Wastelander]

I haven't trained in McCarthy's KU system, myself, but I've interacted with a number of its practitioners and former practitioners online, and I've seen a good number of videos. It seems to be a well-rounded program--as tatsujin mentioned, with it being a sogo bujutsu approach. A blend of striking, grappling, and weapons, with drills that incorporate everything from muchimidi to tuidi to newaza, is a good way to get a full martial arts experience in your training. I will say that some of the drills seem excessively long and complex, to me, though. Flow drills are great at what they do, but there is a point of diminishing returns, where you have to focus too much on remembering the drill, itself, and aren't able to focus as well on what it is actually supposed to be teaching. You would be better served with short drills, and then developing the ability to flow between them unscripted, IMO. That is a completely outside perspective, though.

My experience with and understanding of McCarthy, as a person, is significantly less positive than his system, I'm afraid. As you've mentioned, he certainly comes off as a rather arrogant person who enjoys hearing himself talk, and he also likes to use large, unnecessarily complex vocabulary in his lectures, which really seems like it would just alienate and confuse people while making him sound smart. He has certainly contributed significantly to research into Okinawan karate, so it does make sense that he would be confident in what he presents, and I'm sure he has a reason for presenting in the manner he does, but it rubs me the wrong way, personally. Beyond that, he is very quick to publicly denounce and discredit people any time there appears to be some threat to his public image--in fact, if he or one of his students sees this post, I will likely be thrown under the bus a second time (the first time was because someone posted on my social media about him being a fraud, and I responded in a comment asking for proof). It's been happening a lot, lately, as well, due to the fact that a bunch of his former students are coming out publicly about him being manipulative, emotional abusive, and generally mean and disrespectful to people under him, among other claims.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, on both the system and the person. Everyone learns a little differently, and enjoys different approaches to training. Every interpersonal interaction is different, and nuanced--like tatsujin's experience with him being generally positive. These are just my opinions, for whatever they are worth, and I would not, personally, want to be part of the KU system because of the person it is attached to.

I appreciate being put into the same category as McCarthy and Iain, but I would never claim to have the same level of experience, and I certainly wouldn't consider myself an equal. I do my best with what I've been taught, what I've researched, and what I've figured out, but I'm sure by the time I have as much experience as they do, I'll be much further along than I am, now.

[tatsujin]

Tatsujin, thank you so much for your response! Your wisdom and experience has really shines through all the answers you’ve provided me.

I struggled with who Patrick McCarthy was for a long time. My initial impression of him was an overly egotistic, overly confident man who loved listening to himself ramble on. I’ve listened to a few podcasts where he’s a guest and I’ve ALWAYS caught myself thinking, “is he even going to give the other person a chance to speak???”

However. The man has absolutely earned his right to ramble on. I’ve never heard of NLP, but regardless, he has a wealth of knowledge to share that anyone, regardless of style, would greatly benefit from listening to. It goes without saying that it probably requires patience to be a student of his, but I’d still kill for the opportunity. Along with Noah Legal and Iain Abernathy - I rank all 3 of them as equals. Simply because Noah also studies Shorin Ryu, I’d probably choose him as my Sensei if I could. Lol.

Although your answer didn’t have a direct relationship to my questions, I still found it highly insightful. Im happy to have read what you had to share and it really did affect how I view him as an individual.

Thank you!

Thanks for your response. I am glad that some of my ramblings are of benefit to someone. I don't know about the wisdom part necessarily, but when you have been around for a while, you get to know people and situations and at least gives you a frame of reference to speak to.

As for personality and the like...take someone from history like Motobu Choki. By all accounts, he was not the most "nice" person around. From what I have read about him (and, to an extent, by him), there are probably more accurate terms that could be used but are not appropriate here. But, there is no doubt as to the effectiveness of Motobu-ryu.

Speaking from personal experience, I have been accused of trying to flaunt knowledge or trying to act like I am better than others or more skilled than others, etc. by some in the past because of my continued use of Japanese and Chinese (and in some cases Uchinaguchi...even though that language continues to baffle me more and more) and associated ideograms. I do it for the sake of being clear and, hopefully, others doing their own research on topics and coming up with their own conclusions. So, to some degree I can understand why I personally think Patrick speaks the way he does.

Keep in mind that for a long time, he was in an academic setting in Australia (I think he is back in Okinawa now?). Anyway, if you have ever been in a setting of higher academia where the letter salad behind a person's name and the like seems to be the most important thing (along with having obtained tenure and when you were last published), it could be a coping mechanism from there or, essentially, a means to "defend" yourself. Additionally, I can tell you from back in the day of email lists on the interwebs that Patrick had many, many detractors. Using a large and somewhat long winded vocabulary and writing style COULD be means of defense against them. I, obviously, can't tell you what is in his head or what is motivations are. But, if I can get beneficial skills and/or information from him with that being the price to pay, I am personally OK with it.

I don't think this is the case here (in regards to you or anyone else that has responded to this thread), but I do think that sometimes we put instructors (whatever their title may be) on a pedestal higher than it should be. Even with the Japanese and their very big push as to martial arts to polish the soul or perfection of character, I think we should usually limit that to martial arts in most cases. Or, in other words and maybe a better way of saying it is that for many folks we have a skewed ideal for who those that teach the martial and energetic arts should have. Remember, the Japanese (and to a large extent most Asian cultures) have a concept of tatemae (建前 - a fake front or facade) and honne (本音 - true sound). Tatemae is what is shown in public and to most other people in any setting. It is a sort of "go along to get along". Don't "stir the pot" or "make waves". Honne is what you really think and feel. That is kept private and not shown except, maybe, to the people that are closest to you. Westerners tend to be very different and will, usually, say what they think. Even if it is against the grain to a greater or lesser degree. So, we apply an Japanese (or Asian) ideal to a person that does not follow or support the display of that ideal.

Anyway... I am rambling again! LOL!

[username19853]

Wastelander, always a pleasure to hear what you have to say. Respectfully, I think you should give yourself much more credit.

In regards to what you said about Patrick - that’s exactly what my entire dojo’s reasoning was (at least 20 different people have chimed in on this, everything you said as well as other point of view - basically saying the same thing) for cancelling their affiliation with him. LOL. Personally, I never met him or interacted with him in any way, so I can’t speak from personal experience. However, there’s definitely a common trend that I continue to see, every time his name is mentioned.

Due to the mass amounts of respect that I’ve always held for my own Sensei, I’d never be able to train under someone who’s character is continuously in question.

Teach me Chinto!

[tatsujin]

In regards to what you said about Patrick - that’s exactly what my entire dojo’s reasoning was (at least 20 different people have chimed in on this, everything you said as well as other point of view - basically saying the same thing) for cancelling their affiliation with him. LOL. Personally, I never met him or interacted with him in any way, so I can’t speak from personal experience. However, there’s definitely a common trend that I continue to see, every time his name is mentioned.

Due to the mass amounts of respect that I’ve always held for my own Sensei, I’d never be able to train under someone who’s character is continuously in question.

At the end of the day, "you gotta do you". Certainly if you are uncomfortable with the sensei/deshi relationship from the outset, then it probably would not bode well for either of you.

I am one of those people that takes such a relationship pretty seriously (one of the reasons I don't run a commercial school or teach many folks period). It seems to be lost on most martial artists nowadays. Sad to see...

Good convo though!

[username19853]

At the end of the day, "you gotta do you". Certainly if you are uncomfortable with the sensei/deshi relationship from the outset, then it probably would not bode well for either of you.

I am one of those people that takes such a relationship pretty seriously (one of the reasons I don't run a commercial school or teach many folks period). It seems to be lost on most martial artists nowadays. Sad to see...

Good convo though!

Not sure if you saw my other post, but I started working as a head instructor for a Premier Martial Arts franchise. My coworker and I (also a fellow martial artist) have struggled with this so much! We’re doing our best to be our own authentic selves and not just sell fast tracks to black belt - but unfortunately, that seems to be the mission of the company.

Fortunately, the owner of our school, though not a martial artist, has a big heart and is great to work for. And the curriculum that I teach is determined by the company, so there’s only so much I can do to give my students the best experience possible. The company says they teach a blend of karate, taekwondo, kickboxing, jiu jitsu and Krav Maga - but it’s really only kickboxing and Krav Maga. It pains me that I can’t teach kata!

Thankfully, it’s still martial arts. The owner wants to give back to the community and my coworker and I are doing the best we can with what we’ve got.

[tatsujin]

Not sure if you saw my other post, but I started working as a head instructor for a Premier Martial Arts franchise. My coworker and I (also a fellow martial artist) have struggled with this so much! We’re doing our best to be our own authentic selves and not just sell fast tracks to black belt - but unfortunately, that seems to be the mission of the company.

Fortunately, the owner of our school, though not a martial artist, has a big heart and is great to work for. And the curriculum that I teach is determined by the company, so there’s only so much I can do to give my students the best experience possible. The company says they teach a blend of karate, taekwondo, kickboxing, jiu jitsu and Krav Maga - but it’s really only kickboxing and Krav Maga. It pains me that I can’t teach kata!

Thankfully, it’s still martial arts. The owner wants to give back to the community and my coworker and I are doing the best we can with what we’ve got.

Ah! No, I had actually missed that part of the situation. Sorry about that!

Just a thought for your situation? You have probably already thought of it already, but I will share anyway if you don't mind.

Since it is more of a "corporate environment" (for lack of a better term), I would suggest writing up a little proposal. Make it for a "new" class that can be taught OR a series of weekend seminars where you (or whomever) can teach on kata and bunkai. There is alot of filler that you can put into this that would cover what would be taught and why. But, at the end of the day, this shows how new, additional and ongoing revenue could be generated from this over time. That, unfortunately, would be what would catch their attention more than anything else. Additionally, if you can do so without getting into any sort of trouble, I would conduct a survey of your student body base to see how many folks would fall into a category range like extremely interested, interested, somewhat interested, not interested and use those numbers as a part of your justification and in potential revenue projection.

Bottom line is that if you find yourself in a more corporate and money driven situation, just try to find ways to operate within that environment, but you still get "what you want". That proverbial "win-win" situation.

Give it some thought. Maybe that or something along those lines will work for you.

Thanks!

[bushido_man96]

Not sure if you saw my other post, but I started working as a head instructor for a Premier Martial Arts franchise. My coworker and I (also a fellow martial artist) have struggled with this so much! We’re doing our best to be our own authentic selves and not just sell fast tracks to black belt - but unfortunately, that seems to be the mission of the company.

Fortunately, the owner of our school, though not a martial artist, has a big heart and is great to work for. And the curriculum that I teach is determined by the company, so there’s only so much I can do to give my students the best experience possible. The company says they teach a blend of karate, taekwondo, kickboxing, jiu jitsu and Krav Maga - but it’s really only kickboxing and Krav Maga. It pains me that I can’t teach kata!

Thankfully, it’s still martial arts. The owner wants to give back to the community and my coworker and I are doing the best we can with what we’ve got.

This goes to show that one can find individuals with great, valid intentions within organizations like this. I think what you and your friend are trying to do is admirable, and the longer you keep it up, the more things will come to fruition in your training in the future.