Is Tang Soo Do pretty much Karate?

[KorroddyDude]

On 10/24/2024 at 6:17 AM, DarthPenguin said:

Looking at it from another perspective i can't see how it is different from jit jitsu really: some people say they do Gracie Jiu Jitsu, some Brazilian jiu jitsu, some (i think) say American jiu jitsu now; 10th planet jiu jitsu etc. They are all similar but slightly different and adopt different mores. eg 10th planet jiu jitsu is always nogi and has totally different names for most techniques or positions; older school Gracie jiu jitsu a white gi is mandated; lots of other 'Brazilian' jiu jitsu clubs you can wear what you like etc. But they all accept each other as jiu jitsu.

On the same note if the art that is taught in Tang Soo Do is fundamentally the same as 'karate' and was originally rooted in karate then it doesn't seem unreasonable to call it karate. For TKD it may have started from shotokan but it has diverged so much that it is clearly a totally different style and they wouldn't be called karate by them or anyone else.

 

I'm kind of curious if "Korean karate" is even accurate.

From what I've read, it went something like this: with the boom of Eastern Martial arts beginning in the early second half of the 20th century from China, Japan, and Thailand; South Korea wanted to make a name for itself.  TSD wasn't fit for this because it wasn't unique enough to give Korea it's own thing.  This lead to TKD.  Apparently, Hwang Kee wanted to be the chairman but was not selected for it, so he stayed with MDK TSD in order to remain the head of something (apparently, the person who was selected to chair TKD defected to the North - so not choosing Hwang Kee was probably a mistake).  TSD eventually became bigger than himself, so he couldn't maintain the control over it that he wanted to - so now to correct this, we have Soo Bahk Do, which Hwang Kee had trademarked.

In any case, TKD became the art that Koreans held onto.  From what I've read, TSD dojangs are almost non-existent in South Korea - only two exist in the entire city of Seoul.  Not that TSD is popular in Japan either, but it is more than in South Korea.

It seems that Koreans have largely divested from TSD decades ago and don't want much to do with it.  It might as well be American now.

Edited October 25 by KorroddyDude

[Luther unleashed]

On 10/25/2024 at 6:54 AM, KorroddyDude said:

I'm kind of curious if "Korean karate" is even accurate.

From what I've read, it went something like this: with the boom of Eastern Martial arts beginning in the early second half of the 20th century from China, Japan, and Thailand; South Korea wanted to make a name for itself.  TSD wasn't fit for this because it wasn't unique enough to give Korea it's own thing.  This lead to TKD.  Apparently, Hwang Kee wanted to be the chairman but was not selected for it, so he stayed with MDK TSD in order to remain the head of something (apparently, the person who was selected to chair TKD defected to the North - so not choosing Hwang Kee was probably a mistake).  TSD eventually became bigger than himself, so he couldn't maintain the control over it that he wanted to - so now to correct this, we have Soo Bahk Do, which Hwang Kee had trademarked.

In any case, TKD became the art that Koreans held onto.  From what I've read, TSD dojangs are almost non-existent in South Korea - only two exist in the entire city of Seoul.  Not that TSD is popular in Japan either, but it is more than in South Korea.

It seems that Koreans have largely divested from TSD decades ago and don't want much to do with it.  It might as well be American now.

I feel you are really stepping into an area that takes away from making a valid point anymore.  You are absolutely set in your position that it isn’t Karate, and after acknowledging you’ll give it the term Korean Karate you know are moving back on that as well.  You feel Japanese or Okinawa karate “has the say” because it originated there, but so did Tang Soo Do originate FROM there.  It was taught to the Koreans during their occupation of Korea.  There are two versions of the origin.  One is the Japanese soldiers taught it to the imprisoned Koreans, the other is the Koreans simply watched and learned.  

I can attest to the fact that Tang Soo Do isn’t popular in Korea anymore, but what logic leads us to say it’s not even Korean anymore simply because it isn’t as popular as it once was.  As a matter of fact, I have had a few foreign exchange students in my home.  One from Germany and one from Korea.  The girl from Korea “yerin” had never even heard of Tang Soo Do.  She was 16 yrs old and only heard of Tae Kwon Do.  You aren’t wrong in your point about its popularity but popularity now gives way to the true origins of an art and what country it belongs too?  Doesn’t that make old styles that aren’t practiced any,ore not of their country because they lost popularity?  

My instructor who taught the art as Karate, and called it the Korean variant of Shotokan, earned his master rank in Tang Soo Do in Korea on an air force base there.  He used all Korean terminology as well.  So because Taekwondo is more popular it’s somehow American?   So if Taekwondo became the most popular art in Japan and the Japanese divested from their arts, it would mean your version of karate is American if it too became popular in America?

id be willing to bet you’d argue nonstop that it is Japanese in origin so it is therefore Japanese weather it fizzled out in Japan or not.  American Tang Soo Do is, however an American Karate system.  That is true, but Korean based Tang Soo Do such as Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is absolutely Korean. I understand not according to you because you don’t see it as Karate and I respect your opinion but its origins are in Karate.  The system was based around Shotokan and thus the origin must matter.  Everything isn’t marketing.  Most wish to be true to what they do.  
 

I know I’m barking up the tree of cheesiness if I keep referring to movies here but we’ve already spoken about Karate kid.  The movie best of the best is another that uses Tang Soo Do.  The main bad guy from Korea on the Korean team is a grandmaster and pioneer of Tang Soo Do and also runs a large TSD organization (grandmaster Ho Sik Pak)! I’m simply eluding to the fact that, as I mentioned more then once, if seeking the answer to weather Tang Soo Do is Karate or now taking it a step further is even Korean, I’d say the same thing.  It depends who you ask.  If you ask an Okinawa practitioner of Karate or Japanese style today, they will likely denounce it as Karate.  If you ask the Tang Soo Do practitioners themselves when understanding their art came from the Japanese, they’d be in shock that so many don’t accept what they do as karate (the Korean variant)!  

Edited October 28 by Luther unleashed

[KorroddyDude]

4 hours ago, Luther unleashed said:

...I can attest to the fact that Tang Soo Do isn’t popular in Korea anymore, but what logic leads us to say it’s not even Korean anymore simply because it isn’t as popular as it once was...  ..You aren’t wrong in your point about its popularity but popularity now gives way to the true origins of an art and what country it belongs too?  Doesn’t that make old styles that aren’t practiced any,ore not of their country because they lost popularity?  

...So if Taekwondo became the most popular art in Japan and the Japanese divested from their arts, it would mean your version of karate is American if it too became popular in America?

...id be willing to bet you’d argue nonstop that it is Japanese in origin so it is therefore Japanese weather it fizzled out in Japan or not.  American Tang Soo Do is, however an American Karate system.  That is true, but Korean based Tang Soo Do such as Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is absolutely Korean...

When I was suggesting that it could be considered American moreso than Korean, I meant in a "for all intents and purposes" sense.

Boxing, as we know it today with its Marquess of Queensberry Rules, originated in the UK.  However, with Americans and Mexicans having dominated the sport for so long, no one associates boxing with the UK.  The rise of Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury came too late to change that.

Paprika is generally considered to be a Hungarian thing... even thought it's native to the New World and was brought back to Europe by Columbus' crew.  Similar history with Italy and tomatoes.

So when I say that TSD may as well be American now, it would be analagous to these examples.

[Luther unleashed]

Here is a cool video for those that wish to delve into this topic branching out to Jesse Enkamp.  He visits a Tang Soo Do studio, takes a class and compares what he learns.  He references it as Karate (Korean Karate).  I speaks about the origins and the meaning of Tang Soo Do translating to China Hand which is the same as Okinawan Karate.  Cool find for this topic.  

 

Edited October 29 by Luther unleashed

[Luther unleashed]

Is in no way to continue a dialogue wishing to prove who is right or who is wrong, but only to have a dialogue in which we all discuss whether TSD is considered karate or not. Because the idea recently, in the last few posts has truly been challenged, meaning the idea that karate has been challenged. I just feel it’s important to post some things for those interest such as the original poster although I realize the thread is old I think that’s what keeps this place going is constant revival because new generations of people come along with similar questions.
 

Here is the great Pat Johnson, who passed away a few years back. Pat Johnson was the referee in the karate kid and taught martial arts to the actors on the karate kid set. He’s also done a lot more with his life and he’s a prominent figure in American Tang Soo Do which he continuously refers to as American karate. https://youtu.be/GtJQzLm8Ckg?si=LBlBjO0zjs0Apmo_

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for sharing that interview.  Really cool experiences there.

[Luther unleashed]

Yeah, it is a cool interview. It’s definitely a different scene from the more traditional Japanese styles. Being in the American version of TSD myself these are all people I really looked up to as martial artists. I was very sad to hear about his passing. Is a cool tribute, somebody made for him. There’s so cool pictures in it. Some from the karate kid seen and others.   

 

[JazzKicker]

I'll stand by my post from nearly 4 years ago, but add some thoughts based on my own cross-fertilization experiences. TSD is really karate, and more. Put a TSD black belt in a shotokan class, they'll be able to follow right along and not see anything completely new or different. Forms, they'd have to follow along and navigate some subtle differences.

But take a Shotokan practioner, put them in a TSD class, they probably wouldn't have done nearly so much jumping or spinning kicks, and their forms would look much more rigid, snappy, fast, even.

The funny thing about the Americanization, it really is "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", bordering on cultural appropriation. If you look at a group like World Tang Soo Do, or even the videos with Pat Johnson- you'll see few, if any Koreans. Dojangs have Korean flags, Americans bow, use lots of formality and almost military etiquette, yell "Yes Sir" and mispronounce Korean terms, it's kind of embarrassing.

[KorroddyDude]

Oops, looks like there are TSD guys who beg to differ:

https://www.amazon.com/Tang-Soo-Do-Martial-T-Shirt/dp/B0CDF2KRV1?customId=B0752XJYNL&customizationToken=MC_Assembly_1%23B0752XJYNL&th=1

[Luther unleashed]

On 11/9/2024 at 3:58 PM, JazzKicker said:

I'll stand by my post from nearly 4 years ago, but add some thoughts based on my own cross-fertilization experiences. TSD is really karate, and more. Put a TSD black belt in a shotokan class, they'll be able to follow right along and not see anything completely new or different. Forms, they'd have to follow along and navigate some subtle differences.

But take a Shotokan practioner, put them in a TSD class, they probably wouldn't have done nearly so much jumping or spinning kicks, and their forms would look much more rigid, snappy, fast, even.

The funny thing about the Americanization, it really is "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", bordering on cultural appropriation. If you look at a group like World Tang Soo Do, or even the videos with Pat Johnson- you'll see few, if any Koreans. Dojangs have Korean flags, Americans bow, use lots of formality and almost military etiquette, yell "Yes Sir" and mispronounce Korean terms, it's kind of embarrassing.

You think it is embarrassing that Americans who do not fluently speak the language, but learn the terms to bring a tradition into their school, is embarrassing when they make mispronunciations?  This is quite strange. I remember when I had a foreign exchange student from Korea in my home. I had seen many different ways to say certain things, and I asked if the way I was saying them was correct and pretty much every way I said the Korean words was correct to her, however the reason we use those terms or terminology in class is to honor the culture. It is not to act like we are from Korea. 
 

pat Johnson does not study nor does he practice TSD so it would be normal to not see Koreans as he practices American TSD, which is in essence quite different. In American TSD 90% of the terminology used is not even Korean. It is Japanese. We use terms like sensei and gi.  We call karate schools a Dojo. Fact that there are no Koreans in there means very little and the last thing I’ll say when you talk about cultural appropriation this is nauseating to hear you say. The fact is this is why MMA has had such a big shining beacon of light over it the last 10 or even 15 years or more. They just isn’t the same amount of fighting. Not fighting with each other. The more that gets added to it they understand the better you will be. We represent the Korean lineage to honor it not to appropriate it because for the record most people back in the day that American martial arts are extraordinarily proud of being American , which is much different than today where many have lost their pride. This is the biggest turn off about TSD and other traditional martial arts is all of the nitpicking about what is right and what is not and now we’re talking about cultural appropriation, which, as I said, is absolutely nauseating. 
 

I respect everybody’s opinion, and so I will respect that yours is different than mine, but I don’t think you understand the basis of karate or TSD for that matter.