Is Tang Soo Do pretty much Karate?

[Luther unleashed]

On 10/21/2024 at 11:06 AM, sensei8 said:

Is TSD Karate?? That's for one to decide for themselves. I say TSD is TSD. Does TSD look like Karate?? Well, sometimes it does and other times it doesn't. 

See this is my point though. It is developed karate just because it doesn’t look like the original style doesn’t mean that it’s not karate. It just means it’s not the original karate system.  To me it looks like karate because it is karate. It just doesn’t look like the original system of karate because it has been built upon. I train in and teach the American version so the version I do does not look like MDK version either.  Does that mean it’s not TSD? Well no it’s not the original. It is a modified version of it. It’s the same concept for me.  

[KorroddyDude]

On 10/21/2024 at 2:06 PM, sensei8 said:

Is TSD Karate?? That's for one to decide for themselves. I say TSD is TSD. Does TSD look like Karate?? Well, sometimes it does and other times it doesn't. 

In my opinion, whether or not you're generally accepted by indisputable members of a particular community as one of their own needs to be a factor as well.  In fact, I think it needs to be the single most important factor.

 

 

[sensei8]

Labels can be so limiting across the board especially when it comes to the MA. 

"The term Jeet Kune Do was coined and put into use in 1967 by Bruce Lee in an attempt to put a name to his martial expression. Lee wrestled with putting a name to his art as he constantly veered away from any type of crystallization (and thereby limitation) of its essence, however, the simple need to refer to it in some concrete way won out and Jeet Kune Do was born." ~ Bruce Lee Foundation

Credit:

https://bruceleefoundation.org/jeetkunedo/#:~:text=Lee wrestled with putting a name to his,won out and Jeet Kune Do was born.

[bushido_man96]

9 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

In a personal sense, sure.

But if you walk into a TSD dojang, there's nothing on the walls showing homage to art's Japanese or Okinawan roots.  If you walked into a TSD dojang knowing absolutely nothing about the art, you'd automatically think that it's rooted 100% in Korea.

It's no different in Japanese and Okinawan karate.  There's nothing on the walls of a karate dojo showing homage to the art's Chinese roots.  That's because we don't consider karate to be "Okinawan kung fu."

This is a good point.  However, I think that has a lot to do with the Japanese Occupation of Korea and how the Koreans railed against anything Japanese after it was over.  It's like an absentee father that a child has never met.  They may never consider them their "father," but that doesn't mean they aren't related.

[KorroddyDude]

9 hours ago, bushido_man96 said:

This is a good point.  However, I think that has a lot to do with the Japanese Occupation of Korea and how the Koreans railed against anything Japanese after it was over.  It's like an absentee father that a child has never met.  They may never consider them their "father," but that doesn't mean they aren't related.

This would include ditching the word "karate."

This is actually the case with Soo Bahk Do.  As a matter of fact, the word "karate" does not appear at all in the 130-page member manual issued to new students by the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.

[Luther unleashed]

18 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

In my opinion, whether or not you're generally accepted by indisputable members of a particular community as one of their own needs to be a factor as well.  In fact, I think it needs to be the single most important factor.

 

 

Absolutely disagree. I only agree if TSD was trying to use the term Shotokan, then it would be silly for them to use that term when nobody in the Art sees them as that. Karate is a broad term and describes an array of techniques, and principles not only where it comes from.  
 

these are just opinions, but I think this is why, if you look at our conversation, you will see an example of the reason there is such division in traditional martial arts. Mixed martial arts tend not to have this problem. I see it within the same style often where people argue about the proper use of this or the proper term for that. TSD, in particular is very separated by much of this. it will continue to be called karate as it has been since the 70s by its practitioners and whether or not people from a Japanese style or Okinawa style support. The term it’s going to continue to be used. No matter what the arguing points are. It is used as such much to the dislike of many practitioners of many styles. I do not see this changing. 

 

The simplest way I could think of saying it to somebody, and I mean anybody would be to say that TSD is its own thing in a sense, but the primary practice and focus is karate style techniques, and principles of being a hard style and much difference than kung fu, and this is what makes it karate. when speaking of something like tae kwon do, and asking, if it’s karate will know because the techniques truly are something else I mean their forms are different they look like something else, and it just doesn’t follow that same lineage. Not in general.  
 

I respect everybody’s opinion, even if mine is different, but all I’m trying to say is that while we have difference of opinion, here it’s important to note why there can never be true unity because most traditional martial artist and schools cannot agree on the premise or the principles that are important, or make it so.  I am perfectly comfortable teaching karate and for those who suggest I’m teaching something else and miss using the word karate I’m totally fine with you having your opinion. I will continue to teach karate, however.

[Luther unleashed]

7 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

This would include ditching the word "karate."

This is actually the case with Soo Bahk Do.  As a matter of fact, the word "karate" does not appear at all in the 130-page member manual issued to new students by the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.

However, the word karate is used extremely often in the American version of TSD. Even when Chuck Norris began calling it the Chuck Norris system. It is commonly referred to as the Chuck Norris karate system.  It’s also important to state that just because something isn’t written doesn’t mean it isn’t a common term in schools and on the building and even in business names.

[KorroddyDude]

32 minutes ago, Luther unleashed said:

However, the word karate is used extremely often in the American version of TSD. Even when Chuck Norris began calling it the Chuck Norris system. It is commonly referred to as the Chuck Norris karate system.

Sounds like marketing to me.

Quote

It’s also important to state that just because something isn’t written doesn’t mean it isn’t a common term in schools and on the building and even in business names.

Which means that they went out of their way to avoid using the word "karate."  Sounds like they're distancing themselves from karate to me.

[Luther unleashed]

11 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

Sounds like marketing to me.

Which means that they went out of their way to avoid using the word "karate."  Sounds like they're distancing themselves from karate to me.

It’s not marketing if the practitioners refer to what they are doing as karate.  It Is marketing if they do it with the sole purpose of marketing and don’t believe it is.  To the original post/question, I believe we have demonstrated the answer.  The answer is Tang Soo So is a Korean variant of karate and in terms of American Tang Soo Do it’s an Americanized Korean karate variation.  A black bear is still a bear and so is a polar bear also a bear.  
 

On an ending note from me, most Japanese and Okinawa practitioners will absolutely not accept it as “Karate” and while some will accept it as “Korean karate” and the like, almost all Tang Soo Do practitioners will call what they do “karate”. 
 

Lastly if you look at sensei ichi on YouTube with is ichikawa, his father is one of the most well-known American TSD practitioners going back to being a Chuck Norris student is the president of his Federation. His school is T.O. Westlake Karate studio.  These are things you can look into yourself I just know that the answers were vary, depending on who you ask as we have demonstrated.    

Hope this helps the original posters question.  

Edited October 24 by Luther unleashed

[DarthPenguin]

Looking at it from another perspective i can't see how it is different from jit jitsu really: some people say they do Gracie Jiu Jitsu, some Brazilian jiu jitsu, some (i think) say American jiu jitsu now; 10th planet jiu jitsu etc. They are all similar but slightly different and adopt different mores. eg 10th planet jiu jitsu is always nogi and has totally different names for most techniques or positions; older school Gracie jiu jitsu a white gi is mandated; lots of other 'Brazilian' jiu jitsu clubs you can wear what you like etc. But they all accept each other as jiu jitsu.

On the same note if the art that is taught in Tang Soo Do is fundamentally the same as 'karate' and was originally rooted in karate then it doesn't seem unreasonable to call it karate. For TKD it may have started from shotokan but it has diverged so much that it is clearly a totally different style and they wouldn't be called karate by them or anyone else.