Is Tang Soo Do pretty much Karate?

[Luther unleashed]

On 10/15/2024 at 9:00 AM, KorroddyDude said:

What other characters are used for TSD?  Because it actually translates to To-te (do).  To get "karate," you would need the hancha for "kong soo" (do).

A mountain lion can never simply be called a lion, a koala bear can never simply be called a bear, and Mongolian barbecue can never simply be called barbecue.

So while I'll grant TSD "Korean karate," I won't grant simply "karate."

From Wikipedia.  Etymology. "Tang Soo Do" (당수도) is the Korean pronunciation of the Hanja 唐手道 (pronounced Táng shǒu dào in Mandarin), and translates literally to "The Way of the Tang Hand." The same characters can be pronounced "karate-dō" in Japanese.

[KorroddyDude]

4 hours ago, Luther unleashed said:

From Wikipedia.  Etymology. "Tang Soo Do" (당수도) is the Korean pronunciation of the Hanja 唐手道 (pronounced Táng shǒu dào in Mandarin), and translates literally to "The Way of the Tang Hand." The same characters can be pronounced "karate-dō" in Japanese.

Two things:

1.  We all know why Wikipedia can't be used as a reference, and this is an example.  Karate-do is "the way of the empty hand," not "tang hand.  The character for Tang 唐 is pronounced "tō" in Japanese.  The characters for karate-do are 空手道, which is pronounced "kong soo do" in Korean.  It was "tang hand" in Okinawa before spreading to mainland Japan, but that was way before Koreans trained in it.

2.  By the way, none of that matters.  Even if they changed the name of it to "kong soo do," I still wouldn't consider it to be karate.  If I walk into a TSD dojang, I'm going to see hangul everywhere, people using Korean words, uniforms with piping on the edges, etc.  I should be able to walk into any karate dojo, regardless of style, and be able to follow along with their commands (with the exception of their kata).  I can't do that in a TSD dojang.

If karate is the French language, TSD would be Haitian Creole.

Edited October 17 by KorroddyDude

[bushido_man96]

I don't think universality is a necessary component.  TSD does have its roots in Karate.  When the Okinawan practitioners originally used the term Karate, the symbol they used was for Tang, hence "Tang Hand."  Funakoshi changed the symbol to the one for "Empty," thus deriving "Empty Hand."  I didn't find that on Wiki.

I don't think the language used makes it Karate.  An American school using primarily English language in class wouldn't necessarily detract from it's "Karate-ness."  I think the same can be said of Tang Soo Do.

The problem you run into is if a particular Tang Soo Do school is using the name but is a part of the groups that unified the Kwans in the early days.  If the school is still using the older Karate kata, then I think you have a "Korean Karate" school.

[Luther unleashed]

On 10/17/2024 at 3:01 AM, KorroddyDude said:

Two things:

1.  We all know why Wikipedia can't be used as a reference, and this is an example.  Karate-do is "the way of the empty hand," not "tang hand.  The character for Tang 唐 is pronounced "tō" in Japanese.  The characters for karate-do are 空手道, which is pronounced "kong soo do" in Korean.  It was "tang hand" in Okinawa before spreading to mainland Japan, but that was way before Koreans trained in it.

2.  By the way, none of that matters.  Even if they changed the name of it to "kong soo do," I still wouldn't consider it to be karate.  If I walk into a TSD dojang, I'm going to see hangul everywhere, people using Korean words, uniforms with piping on the edges, etc.  I should be able to walk into any karate dojo, regardless of style, and be able to follow along with their commands (with the exception of their kata).  I can't do that in a TSD dojang.

If karate is the French language, TSD would be Haitian Creole.

The problem I have with what you’re saying is it sounds a lot like you are saying that it cannot be karate because it is a martial art that was developed in Korea? It was developed based on karate. Specifically Japanese karate called shotokan.  The premise that you are firmly standing on in which it must be of a specific cultural background, is not a premise, I believe in. I believe in American karate. I believe in Korean karate. I have no problem with a place that teaches freestyle. karate calling it karate. I find very often that purists simply do not like it and most often those purists in my experience are practitioners of Okinawa style, but sometimes Japanese style. In the karate kid, the cobra Kai use American Tang Soo Do, as most here probably know it was taught to them by grandmaster. Pat Johnson, who is a9degree black belt in the system. The Chuck Norris system is the same Art. They all refer to it as karate. It’s fine if you disagree with that, I’m simply saying that I agree with it and I understand there’s a large group of people who will not, and that’s fine. Wikipedia is not the only place I could reference, but I don’t think it would matter. 

 

I am a karate teacher. I teach American Tang Soo Do, I do not feel strongly in anyway about your opinion that I do not teach karate. Period. I spent years watching many different factions of Tang Soo Do argue about what techniques were proper, and what techniques were not proper and which organizations taught the real stuff and which ones didn’t. I just don’t get into the politics of it all. If it is truly Art, it is made to be individualized at some point anyways otherwise we cannot call it Art.

[KorroddyDude]

12 hours ago, Luther unleashed said:

In the karate kid, the cobra Kai use American Tang Soo Do, as most here probably know it was taught to them by grandmaster. Pat Johnson, who is a9degree black belt in the system. The Chuck Norris system is the same Art.

You'll also notice that Kreese refers to his school as a "dojo" and Johnny addresses him as "sensei."  That's not the norm in TSD, correct?  Isn't it supposed to be "dojang" and "sabum," respectively?

Quote

I believe in American karate. I believe in Korean karate.

I said this: I'll grant "Korean karate," and I'll even add "American karate."  As long as the words "Korean" and "American," respectively, are always used when referring to those arts.  Just mountain lion and Mongolian barbecue never being referred to as simply "lion" and "barbecue."

The issue here is this: if TSD merely started in Korea and Koreans simply adjusted it to their own vernacular and allowed for other nationalities to do the same as TSD spread... that might be one thing.  Kind of like Western boxing and wrestling.  But that's not what happened.  Korean culture is embedded into TSD.  That's what separates it.

[Luther unleashed]

2 hours ago, KorroddyDude said:

You'll also notice that Kreese refers to his school as a "dojo" and Johnny addresses him as "sensei."  That's not the norm in TSD, correct?  Isn't it supposed to be "dojang" and "sabum," respectively?

I said this: I'll grant "Korean karate," and I'll even add "American karate."  As long as the words "Korean" and "American," respectively, are always used when referring to those arts.  Just mountain lion and Mongolian barbecue never being referred to as simply "lion" and "barbecue."

The issue here is this: if TSD merely started in Korea and Koreans simply adjusted it to their own vernacular and allowed for other nationalities to do the same as TSD spread... that might be one thing.  Kind of like Western boxing and wrestling.  But that's not what happened.  Korean culture is embedded into TSD.  That's what separates it.

I understand what you’re saying, but in most cases, the word, Korean or American are not always used. They might be used when specifically talking about the style to a certain extent, but I run a business, my business is A word with karate after but it does not say Korean or American. In fact, because I teach the American version of a Korean art would I use both? It’s a serious question? Would  I say I teach American/Korean karate?  
 

As for using the word dojo and sensei, you are correct than any traditional TSD school will use the terminology. You’re familiar with in those schools which is Korean language, but it is not only common, but it is absolutely the terminology we use in American tsd to say sensei and dojo and gi instead of do ok and so on.  In fact, you will find it interesting that we don’t even call our forms hyung which would be the common term in any traditional TSD school, but we call them kata.  

 

You will notice Mr. Krease in the karate kit had a karate studio, and always simply referred to it as karate and in fact, when the school is first introduced, you see a big sign outside that simply says karate.  I understand your position you training an art, according to your profile, where, in a sense, it more originates from, but it has been done this way for a very long time, since the 70s, in fact that we refer to what we do as karate.  Many who train in Okinawa and sometimes Japanese arts they just don’t like this I understand. I understand what it’s like to train in that setting and feel like anything else is a spin off or not true to what you are doing but that’s just not how we see it. I’m also simply just very open-minded, because as I mentioned, I don’t get into the politics. One place might say one year is good for Black Bell. Another place says no it has to be five or six years. Then another place laughs at you because it took them 10 years. I just don’t don’t see they’re being a universal standard for any of it I think you find what suits you. 
 

 

Edited October 19 by Luther unleashed

[sensei8]

Is TSD Karate?? That's for one to decide for themselves. I say TSD is TSD. Does TSD look like Karate?? Well, sometimes it does and other times it doesn't. 

[KorroddyDude]

On 10/19/2024 at 2:16 PM, Luther unleashed said:

Many who train in Okinawa and sometimes Japanese arts they just don’t like this I understand. I understand what it’s like to train in that setting and feel like anything else is a spin off or not true to what you are doing but that’s just not how we see it. I’m also simply just very open-minded, because as I mentioned, I don’t get into the politics.

I'm not trying to "play politics" or claim that "mine is real because that's what I do."

It's more so the fact that Koreans took what they learned from the Japanese and made it their own.  That's what's key here.

[bushido_man96]

I think at some point, the practitioners that have been on the journey for a very long time, eventually do make it their own.  I know I have started to do that.

[KorroddyDude]

14 hours ago, bushido_man96 said:

I think at some point, the practitioners that have been on the journey for a very long time, eventually do make it their own.  I know I have started to do that.

In a personal sense, sure.

But if you walk into a TSD dojang, there's nothing on the walls showing homage to art's Japanese or Okinawan roots.  If you walked into a TSD dojang knowing absolutely nothing about the art, you'd automatically think that it's rooted 100% in Korea.

It's no different in Japanese and Okinawan karate.  There's nothing on the walls of a karate dojo showing homage to the art's Chinese roots.  That's because we don't consider karate to be "Okinawan kung fu."