Is Tang Soo Do pretty much Karate?

[Luther unleashed]

For the record, I have never heard somebody in a TSD school say that using the word karate was for marketing. Most would not say that as we absolutely view it as karate. I have trained and teach two variations of the art. The MDK version which is more traditional and definitely very Korean, and American Tang Soo Do which is Chun Kuk Do or now once again called Chuck Norris System.

In Chuck Norris System or American Tang Soo Do, the word Kata is used rather than Poomse or most commonly in Tang Soo Do, Hyundai.

The movie Karate Kid has a strong background in Tang Soo So as Grandmaster Pat Johnson of American Tang Soo Do who passed this last year, taught all the actors the art of Tang Soo So and also other techniques as well. Tang Soo Do is however even recognized in the movies and series as the art of the Cobra Kai. this being said, for the most part, it has always been accepted as karate and the only time I find that it really is not is by people who practice Japanese or Okinawa arts. It’s not a knock to them, just an observation.

Even Chuck Norris to this day on his website, describes his art, which is the American version of it has a hard style karate. Let’s please be careful not to offend Chuck Norris, because we know that the bogeyman checks under his bed at night to make sure Chuck Norris is not there. You don’t want that on your conscience.

[bushido_man96]

I would agree that it's not a marketing ploy. Hwang Kee, back when General Choi and then the KTA was making the push to unify all the kwans, was pretty resistant to it, and never did get pulled under the umbrella. Some of his students, however, did do so, hence why there ended up being MDK TKD and MDK TSD.

[Luther unleashed]

I would agree that it's not a marketing ploy. Hwang Kee, back when General Choi and then the KTA was making the push to unify all the kwans, was pretty resistant to it, and never did get pulled under the umbrella. Some of his students, however, did do so, hence why there ended up being MDK TKD and MDK TSD.

To expand on that part of what you stated is why Tang Soo Do is so un-unified. There are so many variations now. I have witnessed a great deal of “you’re not doing real Tang Soo Do” and so on. It’s disappointing to me. I teach mostly American TSD but a small amount of TSD MDK. It doesn’t bother me to mix as I see fit. Many traditional martial artists are also very much purists to a style much like the shoe wearer is to Nike and so on. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth with TSD. I am envious of Shotokan, or many Okinawan styles because of their unity.

I was already studying Chuck Norris System, but I remember when I wanted to continue training in traditional Tang Soo Do. My instructor moved to Japan as his wife got a great teaching job there teaching English. At 1st Dan and unable to find a Moo Duk Kwan school anywhere even remotely close I looked at schools associated with World Tang Soo Do Association and a few others. All said I had to start at white belt because they don’t teach MDK. It’s a shame. I decided I don’t need to pursue this as I already held higher rank in the American version of the art. Although I really loved the MDK version most, I see no point in starting from the beginning with such small differences in my opinion. How can I stay motivated?

Truly disheartening though when expressing my feelings about my art. I teach on my own and unify as I wish. This is my path to contentment.

Sorry to get off topic. The topic was is Tang Soo Do Karate. I guess it’s who you ask because Tsng Soo Do Might not even be Tang Soo Do in some circles lol.

[KarateKen]

In the Karate Kid movie Cobra Kai is taught TSD (this is referenced in season 5 of Cobra Kai) but call it Karate.

Years ago when I was in TKD I had a book that claimed TKD was "Korean Karate" so maybe they are both tied to Karate in a way. Not sure.

[bushido_man96]

In the Karate Kid movie Cobra Kai is taught TSD (this is referenced in season 5 of Cobra Kai) but call it Karate.

Years ago when I was in TKD I had a book that claimed TKD was "Korean Karate" so maybe they are both tied to Karate in a way. Not sure.

The farther back you get in TKD history, especially the founding of the original kwans, the more true this is. It truly was "Korean Karate," because all the instructors had learned some form of Karate in Japan and brought it back to teach in Korea. All that started to go by the wayside when they started trying to unify the kwans.

[Luther unleashed]

I think the simplest way to view this is… those who practice the original styles of Karate don’t seem to ever concede.  To them, karate cannot come from Korea, or even America for that matter.  Depending on the characters used for TSD, they translate in Japanese to “karate”!  Therefore it IS Korean Karate.  Chuck Norris himself calls it Karate.  Many Americans call styles karate that are American versions of karate. Can we only use the term if it comes from Okinawa or Japan?  
 

 Is there a line to be drawn?  I believe so, sure.  Kung fu doesn’t really fit the term Karate, and in my opinion neither does Tae Kwon Do.  At least most variations.  Especially wtf or what is now I believe called WT.  

Many Schools including mine, call Tang Soo Do, “Tang Soo Do Karate” as one term.  Primarily there is just a bit of separation between those who practice the original styles of karate. They will never acknowledge in most cases what everybody else considers it to be. Karate.  

[bushido_man96]

I'd say you make a good point Luther.  TSD is, at it's core, a style of Karate that was learned by a Korean and then taught in Korea...as Karate.  It should be noted that Hwang Kee was one of the few (if only) original Kwan founder that declined to be pulled under the new TKD umbrella.

[sensei8]

Way to any similarities between TSD and Karate, so, imho, TSD is Karate and in that, Karate is TSD. How many different ways can you punch, kick, strike, block, move, and stand that are effective?? What's in a label?? TSD...Karate...they're one in the same, more or less. So as not to confuse one from another, those darn labels return so one can tell which one is which.

[KorroddyDude]

On 10/12/2024 at 2:16 PM, Luther unleashed said:

I think the simplest way to view this is… those who practice the original styles of Karate don’t seem to ever concede.  To them, karate cannot come from Korea, or even America for that matter.  Depending on the characters used for TSD, they translate in Japanese to “karate”!  Therefore it IS Korean Karate.  Chuck Norris himself calls it Karate.  Many Americans call styles karate that are American versions of karate. Can we only use the term if it comes from Okinawa or Japan? 

What other characters are used for TSD?  Because it actually translates to To-te (do).  To get "karate," you would need the hancha for "kong soo" (do).

A mountain lion can never simply be called a lion, a koala bear can never simply be called a bear, and Mongolian barbecue can never simply be called barbecue.

So while I'll grant TSD "Korean karate," I won't grant simply "karate."

Edited October 15 by KorroddyDude

[KorroddyDude]

On 2/3/2024 at 2:32 PM, Luther unleashed said:

I have never heard somebody in a TSD school say that using the word karate was for marketing.

I wouldn't believe that claim if I had heard it.  Chuck Norris had more than enough clout to make a name for TSD in its own right if he wanted to do that.  He even had the clout early enough for TSD to make a name for itself in the US before karate could.  That is, if he wanted to do that.

Even if no one has ever heard of the particular martial art for which you want to open a school, putting "martial arts" on the signage would work just as good as "karate" - maybe even better, in the case of people who are interested in martial arts but not karate.

If they say "karate," it's because they probably believe that that's what it is.

Edited October 15 by KorroddyDude