Matsumura Sieto Shorin Ryu.

[Miick 11]

Greetings all , Im new here - first post .

Do we have any practitioners of MSSR here ?

It is a tradition stemming from Bushi Matsamura > Nabe Matsamura > Hohan Sokken ....

Ted Lange

.... > > both students of Hohan Sokken

Kosei Nishihira

( after Hohan Soken passed on Ted accepted Mr. Nishihira as the 'head' , as well as some others )

Ted, who sadly recently passed on, bought the tradition to Australia .

[ My background started with Shotokan , being one of the first students in Australia of Frank Nowak > Sikiran > a bit of Silat in Perth > Aikikai Aikido > and the last 10 + years MSSR }

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosei_Nishihira

[Miick 11]

and in case he is unknown to some

{ Now I would not normally recommend listening to Dillman , but this case is an exception ... its rather the 'expose' }

[Shojiko]

Shorin Ryu is a great system to train in.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Shojiko

[Miick 11]

I have a black belt in MSSR althought another lineage (Takaya Yabiku to be exact). Great system to train in.

Excellent ! I'd love to pick your brains ! I have heard about Yabiku .

I have been on a search for what Mr Nishihira taught ... its different . I never got to train with him as he got sick when we where organizing a trip there and sadly died not long after .

We have private films of him that I have studied . My instructor trained with him. I have traveled around the country here trying to find anyone else that trained with him and picked their brains . Even Ted Lange ( sadly very recently passed on ) had a different style to him.

My instructor knows some of it, but keeps reverting to this other stuff as he was Teds student for years . Its a constant 'thing' between us . he doesnt seem to recognize the discrepancies . Its taken some years and personal frustration on my part , but he is eventually agreeing with me .

Mr N would pick it up in observation and watch people and comment " Ted's style , very good ." Indicating that his style was different . Mr N also said he learned it all from Hohan Soken and he was " Only up to Mr Soken's knee " . But Ted trained with Soken . ?

The issue seems to be, I have heard, ' Base style ' . That is, what was taught on American military bases ( Ted was US ex-serviceman ) ' Ted did base style ' . Its different , less traditional and more modern and ' Japanesey ' .

Also take into account the comment Dilman attributes to Hohan Soken " You just bomb everyone .... You dont repect Okinawan people ... even to this day ." Many HAD to teach , to feed family , If they had any left. I suppose not everything was taught , to put it mildly

The tradition was more private, small groups , friends and family ; Mr N never had a dojo, advertised , wore a gi ( most film of him training is in slacks and singlet - pictures in gi are usually 'official 'ones or group photos with westerners all dressed up in uniform). He didnt wear a belt at training . Once someone asked what belt he had and he checked his pants and said "brown leather today ' . At his funeral , his neighbors where amazed about all the people there from OS , they didnt even know he was a karate master . Most if what he taught was based on 'Okinawan crane ' .

Anyway, over time I have realized there is a great difference between Mr N style and what has passed on as 'Shorin-ryu' .

I am keen to know if 'old style ' has passed on to your tradition ? Or what makes you think it is a good style .

basically , it is much more 'Okinawan' than the other 'Okinawan' karates that seem to have adopted Japanese / western influence ( mostly about making a business about it all ) .

- there are certain distinctions which separate the two .

[Miick 11]

In case people do not realise what made Hohan Soken's karate different ;

He was old school Okinawan traditional karate. After the class disruption in Okinawa, it was hard to get an income so he moved to Argentina and worked and taught there .

he missed the whole dynamic that happened at home ; WWII, the after effects and the great changes that happened to karate for various reasons ( turning it into a ;practice; that some didnt understand , adapting it for school physical education and fitness exercise , teaching it to 'the enemy', the influence and change US serviceman brought to it / did to it , turning it into a competition sport , etc )

When he returned, with the old version, he hardly recognized what people where doing .

Being isolated from change , he was somewhat of a 'time capsule' .

[Shojiko]

I can only comment on Nishihiras Karate based on a YT vid of him perfoming Passai and Chinto as you see here in this link (

)

Here is a link to vid of Yabiku performing Matsumura kihon, kata, and him instructing Chuck Chandler and Tony Sandoval I believe.

They look pretty identical in my eyes. Im not familiar with any place that teaches Nishihiras original way nor am I qualified to be knowledgeable about the technical aspects primarily.. I just know my Matsumura lineage encompasses alot of grappling techniques to be the basis of most bunkai to the kata taught. We do have strikes but predominatly stand up grappling techniques.

[Miick 11]

I can only comment on Nishihiras Karate based on a YT vid of him perfoming Passai and Chinto as you see here in this link (

)

Here is a link to vid of Yabiku performing Matsumura kihon, kata, and him instructing Chuck Chandler and Tony Sandoval I believe.

They look pretty identical in my eyes. Im not familiar with any place that teaches Nishihiras original way nor am I qualified to be knowledgeable about the technical aspects primarily.. I just know my Matsumura lineage encompasses alot of grappling techniques to be the basis of most bunkai to the kata taught. We do have strikes but predominatly stand up grappling techniques.

Thanks for that . I have seen that Nishihira vid before but not the Yabiku one . They are very similar. But some of what I was taught is different to both . Hence my searching for sources . Not that it matters too much . Part of the teaching is to adapt what you learn for yourself (eventually ) . Same with us about 'grappling' .

Do you do Hakatsuru kata ? The one we practice, I have not seen before , exactly. I saw one on a vid from USA that is it , with differences but it was done very strangely . I have seen one version on vid that Chuck Chandler did , I dont recognise it all .

There are at least 3 versions I have heard of ( the one I saw Chuck do, I think was called ' Hakatsuru Mei ; ? ) but the one taught to me is 'Hakatsuru' ... no one seems to know which one or which number it is ?

[Montana]

and in case he is unknown to some

{ Now I would not normally recommend listening to Dillman , but this case is an exception ... its rather the 'expose' }

100% agree! Dillman is a fraud. His claims of learning all the "secret techniques" from Soken Hohan are totally false. Dillman met OSensei Soken in a motel room for a few hours along with one of OSensei's top students, Sensei Kise.

They talked for about an hour, then OSensei and Kise left.

According to Sensei Kise, No training happened, and they left with a feeling of disguest for Dillman. This comes from students of Sensei Kise that I have trained with.

[Zaine]

That is also the story of Dillman as posted by James Coffman. Knowing what I know of Dillman, I'm more inclined to believe that than Dillman's account. I remember first encountering Dillman via a documentary about chi, in which he gave some stories about how he could use it. I also know that he claims that he learned it from Soken himself with 3 other black belts, but as those people haven't confirmed the story, I think that it's just something he says.

[Miick 11]

That is also the story of Dillman as posted by James Coffman. Knowing what I know of Dillman, I'm more inclined to believe that than Dillman's account. I remember first encountering Dillman via a documentary about chi, in which he gave some stories about how he could use it. I also know that he claims that he learned it from Soken himself with 3 other black belts, but as those people haven't confirmed the story, I think that it's just something he says.

Sure, I agree with all the above BUT I was in no way lauding Dillman .

my point was Dillman is such a self promoter ego buff, that I find his testimony interesting in that he himself exposes his own lack of knowledge and karate generally , in Soken's view .

Its not about Dillman's claims to have trained with him , that I wanted to point out , but how Dillman said Soken was explaining how he and other people where doing the techniques all wrong and having huge schools and handing out high grade belts without authority .

I can understand Dilman making up stories about training with him , but I dont see why he would make up stories that expose and demean himself .

That was my point .

I previously heard the same from other sources - about American Karate at the time - , so it was interesting to hear Dillman 'confess' the same .

(Yep, James Coffman would have 'known the score'. )