Kata

[MatsuShinshii]

Rant: How many do you actually need?

I know that there have been other posts on this subject but I was speaking with a vendor today that knows a few employees and had found out that I teach. He asked me about my art and specifically he was interested in how many Kata we teach.

When I told him he looked at me cross eyed and stated that his art has 92 Kata. Seriously????

Now I fully understand that there are arts that do not focus on the applications and some that don't even teach/know them and rather focus on the tournament/sport aspects of the art. However I fail to see the benefit of learning knowing that many Kata.

To be perfectly honest I don't understand the need to learn that many Kata. Maybe competition to see how many you can learn? How does learning more than say 20 Kata (not saying that this is the magic number just picked a round number) help or benefit the student? How many Kata would you have to learn for each grade with that many Kata?? If you do the math and figuring 10 kyu and 10 dan grades that's 4.7 Kata per grade. Really???

Sorry to bring this topic up again but I had never heard of so many Kata being taught and to be perfectly honest I didn't even know that any style taught that many.

Unfortunately I did not get to ask him the style of Karate that he studied because he went into a rendition of "your art is not good because you have too few Kata" speech and I walked away.

I thought he was lying but I did a google search I found a website claiming that Shito Ryu is listed as having 94 Kata. Although I also found other websites that had the number between 30 and 50. So maybe he is right about the number but I still fail to understand the reasoning behind teaching that many Kata or how you would benefit from it.

Maybe it's my set in stone ways, but man, that does not make any sense to me.

End of rant.

[Spartacus Maximus]

The thing is that although there may be X number of kata existing in a style, it is unusual for every dojo of that style to include them all. Only a few core kata are shared by all dojo and taught across the board.

Naihanchi, Pinan, Passai, Kusanku and Gojushiho for instance are included in all shorin ryu, but there are quite a few more shorin ryu kata which are only taught in some lineages. The same can be said of all styles of karate and most Chinese martial arts as well.

The reason for this is quite simple and can be explained by the fact that in th past, experts drew their skills from only a few forms. Maybe two or three. That was and still is all that is necessary for personal defense.

It is only after efforts were made to preserve the teachings as a tradition that some experts began to get together to compile curriculums of kata to practise and pass on. Before that is was quite common for a teacher to teach different students different kata because passing in skills was done in private.

As for the reason why shito-ryu having so many kata, the answer lies with Kenwa Mabuni, it’s founder. Mabuni was one of the few Okinawan martial arts practitioners who dedicated his life’s work to the preservation of his native traditions. He and others were among the first “karate historians” who went around Okinawa in the early 1900’s to record, learn and train as many kata as they could in order to preserve and teach them. In the many documents he has left there are mentions of kata which have been lost and are no longer practised. There are all kata that are only found in Mabuni’s lineage and nowhere else.

[JR 137]

I’ve thought about this quite a bit. But I guess I’ll start with the initial question...

How many kata does one need? We need to first define the purpose of kata to the practitioner. To some, each kata is a complete fighting system in and of itself. So one kata should easily suffice. Keep in mind that not all kata were designed like this. It’s been said that the Pinan series were Kanku and/or another kata (I forget which one) cut up and reworked a bit for the purpose of teaching children and beginners easier. So those don’t fit the “complete system” description, along with other similarly short and repetitive kata such as many kyu level kata. I think the older and longer kata such as Kanku/Kusanku, Bassai, Gojushiho, Suparimpei, etc. COULD fit the “complete system” individually if the “complete system” notion is correct. So for the older and longer kata, I don’t see much sense in learning a handful at best if you’re studying and dissecting them as much as possible.

If your purpose in kata is competition, you need several go-to kata. There are multiple round tournaments where the competitor is required to do a different kata each time. Then there are tournaments series where you need to win to move on to the next level tournament. A serious competitor probably doesn’t want to do the same kata at each leg/level so the judges don’t get bored watching them and the competition doesn’t try to one up them. Or if you see someone doing the kata you’ll do during your turn and that person does it better than you know you can, you can do something else. So it’s really helpful to know a lot of kata.

Then there’s individuals like Mabuni Kenwa, who according to Spartacus Maximus, was more or less cataloging kata for preservation’s sake. Not a bad thing at all to have a living encyclopedia of kata in a sense.

There are also schools that use kata as little more than a filler in the syllabus, using kata as a way to test students for promotion. They can load up on the kata list to make their curriculum seem more comprehensive, intentionally or unintentionally. Up to a point, the more the better.

If someone told me their school did 92 kata, and I actually took him seriously, I’d have three questions:

1. How many are empty hand kata, and how many are kobudo kata?

- If they’re learning, say 3 kata at each rank, and a few kata for each weapon, the number of total kata adds up pretty quickly.

2. How long are the kata?

- I’ve seen some Chinese forms/“kata” that are a handful of steps/counts. If many kata are 5-10 moves, doing 50 short kata could be like doing 10 regular 20 step/count kata.

Is there a rank where no new kata is taught anymore? If your organization stops teaching new kata at 5th dan while another organization has new kata all the up to and including 10th dan (or even 15th dan ), then there’s obviously going to be more kata taught, all else being equal.

92 kata? I have no interest in that. That seems like collecting kata rather than perfecting it. With that many, even if their sole purpose is the outward performance, how high can the standards be? I can’t see it as much more than memorizing it is “good enough” vs really performing it well. But maybe not.

If I ever started my own organization, I’d have 5 kyu kata total, and one kata at each dan rank up to and including 5th or 6th dan. So a 10 kyu syllabus would look something like this:

10th kyu - Sanchin kata and beginner bunkai

9th kyu - Sanchin kata advanced bunkai

8th kyu - Gekisai Dai kata and beginner bunkai

7th kyu - Gekisai Dai advanced bunkai

6th kyu - 1st kyu - I think you get the pattern

I’d also separate kobudo out and teach it separately as its own system with separate rank. I’d probably throw a few kobudo kata and drills into the karate syllabus starting at 2nd or 1st kyu to give students exposure to it and getting them to move in different ways, but nothing too in-depth.

But all that said, I’ll cross that imaginary Kaicho of my own organization bridge when I get to it

[Spartacus Maximus]

Kata in its simplest form is just a tool to learn and practise correct body mechanics without the need for another person. It is the “mold” or the “model”. This idea is used and shared by all martial arts, even though it may be called by different terms. Kata is not defined by the number of steps or moves it includes.

The multiple kata curriculum which are so common across styles today are a very recent phenomenon. It goes back less than 100 years when several Okinawan experts decided to get together and preserve the various martial arts systems practised in their country. In the generations before the founders of the Okinawan styles, an expert knew, mastered and taught very few kata indeed.

The fact is that most(if not all) of the Okinawan experts who founded the styles known today had more than one teacher or source for the skills they passed on to every subsequent generation of karate practitioners.

[sensei8]

Rant: How many do you actually need?

ONE!!

Please forgive me my nagging suspicious innate nature of mine, and having said that, just why would a fellow MAist feel the urge to mention to another fellow MAist that the style in which they're a part of possess 92 Kata, even if the style in which they're a part of had 92 Kata!?!?!?

Perhaps it's because that the MA knowledge and/or experience this individual possesses has been garnered form anywhere else, via some media venue, except through having actually ever been on the floor of a MA school. Of course, I'm only stabbing at the dark with my unfounded perhaps.

I remember some eons ago, while my family and I had attended a family reunion, that was held at my grandparents house, on my mom's side, when a particular friend spoke, i which that particular friend had wished that they had remained silent. As always it was my grandparents way by always allowing family members to bring with them their friends, close or not to anyone in the family, to our reunions.

This one particular friend, who was a boyfriend of one of my nieces, while we had all gathered around this massive table for lunch, and right at the very height of this lunch, the majority of the conversation was of no particular topic; just some idle chit chat, as family and friends will do in a setting as in this.

My niece and her boyfriend sat opposite of me and my wife, we exchanged pleasantries. My grandfather has very little tolerance about discussions in his home that are centered around religion, politics, and sports, because discussions as those can inadvertently lead to hostility within the family, and ruin the occasion.

My niece, and for some unknown reason, tells her boyfriend about my MA background. He's all ears!! I just sit there and eat, wanting to strangle my niece, because everyone that knows me knows that my MA is personal and private; if someone discovers that I've a MA background, then they find it out, but not from me. Also, the downside of being a MAist, is that one someone finds out I've an extensive MA background, that person(s) want to tell you all about their MA background, whether I want to know or not.

This day was no exception!! I just smile and eat!!

I listened to my niece's boyfriend provide me with his MA resume, knowledge and experience, for about 15 minutes or so, and all the while, my family, all of them, become very still and very quite, one by one, as each are elbowed by someone sitting near them; all eyes are on us two, and my niece, by now, is looking like she wants to crawl in a deep hole...anywhere but at the table. Grandpa's jaws are clinched!!

"What do you think, Bob?"

"What do I think about what, Marcus?" I say.

"About what? Weren't you listening?? About my MA background and all"

"Yeah! Can I ask you a question, MAist to MAist, if I may" I ask, eyes around the table are as wide as saucers, wondering what I'm going to say/do.

"Yes, ask away"

"What size is your Gi?" I ask

"My what?"

"Your Gi!! What size is it!!" I ask

Silence....you can see his eyes are seeking for an answer!!

Finally, Marcus says to me...

"Size 32"

"Size 32, huh...wow...pretty impressive" I say retorted

"Why, you ask? I tell you all about my MA background, and all, and you ask me about the size of my Gi?! Let me ask you something...what's a gi??

Everyone sits much closer to the table!!

I chuckle!!

"What's so funny, Bob?"

"You!!" I say pointedly

"I wear a size 6 Gi, myself. And I believe that you would, if you really had one, would wear a size 5 Gi. Oh yeah, a Gi, which you should know, when one considers your MA background, is a uniform one wears when you're at the dojo, and that's the name of a Karate school. If you had a size 32 Gi, it would probably fit your car. As far as your MA background is concerned, I won't entertain that because I'm quite sure that all of your MA knowledge and experience came from anywhere else but a school of the MA. Tell you what! You say nothing else about the MA, and I'll not have to listen to it anymore. Two things I hate...can't stand...don't want them around me...thieves and liars!! Do not begin, not even for one second, that you can pretend to assume a possession that you've not right to, whatsoever, to me, not when it comes to the MA!!" So, please, can I please finish my meal in peace, please...thank you I said firmly, in a calm voice.

He said nothing else to me the rest of the day, and the family gave him a piece of their minds behind closed doors.

This fellow MAist appears to, like Marcus did, have offered a glimpse into the MA style's possessing of 92 Kata's, and having not mentioned that, while their MA style has 92 Kata's within its history, they only learn/train in, for example, 20 or more. That perhaps might've supported the statement much more as to the 92 Kata. If not, and like what I did with Marcus, I would promptly excused myself from the conversation for cause.

[JazzKicker]

I trained in Shito-Ryu when I first started martial arts in the early 80's. My instructor was the real deal, from Japan. Nobody did 92 katas, that's for sure. The 5 basic Pinan ones were the same as Shotokan and, I later found, Tang Soo Do. Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto were dan katas I remember doing then. I'm suppose there were a few more advanced ones like Kunsanku, Ro Hai, etc. but certainly not 92!

[MatsuShinshii]

I trained in Shito-Ryu when I first started martial arts in the early 80's. My instructor was the real deal, from Japan. Nobody did 92 katas, that's for sure. The 5 basic Pinan ones were the same as Shotokan and, I later found, Tang Soo Do. Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto were dan katas I remember doing then. I'm suppose there were a few more advanced ones like Kunsanku, Ro Hai, etc. but certainly not 92!

I have no idea if this guy trains in Shito Ryu. I only stated that while surfing the web looking to see if there was any art that had that many Kata I came across a site that claimed that Shito Ryu had 94 Kata.

[MatsuShinshii]

I have no need nor would I want to learn that many Kata. I do not think that learning this many Kata is beneficial to the student unless it is in terms of competition as JR 137 points out.

IMHO if you're studying the Kata there should be no need for that many Kata. I'll hold the number I feel is sufficient as to not target a specific number and single any art out that has more. However I do feel that learning Kata for the sake of learning Kata strictly for the number and without the substance and depth of understanding (applications) serves no purpose.

IMHO there is no way a person can have any understanding past the mere movements and pattern of any Kata when you have a syllabus that large.

I didn't think to ask him how many he actually knew or if he could name them, as I had already dismissed him after his statement but Bob had a point in that he was likely over exaggerating and attempting to impress.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Out of a total of over 30 kata (excluding kihon kata) existing in Shorin ryu, only between 12 and 18 are taught. Usually a given lineage will have maybe one or two kata that are included because they are favourites/specialties of the instructor or considered to contain important principles or techniques.

The number of kata in the curriculum or the style is not really important and rushing into the next kata is not a good way to make any progress. It is very easy to miss important and subtle principles in the kata if one is too hasty or only bothers to learn the “moves”. Many things are much more difficult than they might appear.

[Lupin1]

Isshinryu only has eight empty hand kata.

For my Shodan test, however, I had to know 15 kata. Personally, I think the number was unnecessarily high. If I were to open my own school (or take over this one someday), I would cut the number to maybe 10 or 11 (the 8 Isshinryu kata with maybe 2 or 3 supplementary forms). Now almost three years after my Shodan test, I feel like I barely know a few of my kata. I couldn't get up and perform them without getting lost because we never practice them. I'd rather have fewer kata that we practice more often than a bunch of kata we barely ever touch.