Moving in zenkutsu dachi

[LastKing]

I've never been a fan of Zen stance, mainly because to get it right seems to require such physical contortions. But I can get there when static. When moving, however, especially in kata, I find it almost impossible to make it look any good. I know all the finer points, how it should be done, trouble is, it just doesn't seem to work. If I go for any type of speed, my form goes out of the window, the main problem being, my rear leg shortens, my hips tilt forward and my back knee softens.

Anyone got any tips on how to get it to look good.

Also, one other quick one. should I be snapping my hips when in zen and doing blocks, punches etc. In a shorter stance, I can get a good snap which make any offence/defence fast and effective, but zen seems to rob me of the snap. I do have impinged hips, which probably doesn't help, but ironically, they are impinged to the sides, not forwards and backwards.

Cheers in advance.

[LLLEARNER]

I got better moving in zenkutsu dachi by practicing Heian Shodan. I found my movements improved (got more flowy) when I stopped focusing on the end result of a perfect stance and kept moving through to the next step forward. When I started I focused on having perfect form at the end of each movement in the kata. Then I read (on this board I think) about stances being transitional, rather than the end result. It helped solidify in my mind to move through the stance.

Sensei Rick Hotton has several good videos on YouTube. In one of them he talks about movement and using the end of one movement to start the next. I cannot remember which one it is, but all his videos are worth watching.

I have also put tape down on the floor and painted lines on my lawn to work on my stances. I would just focus on the footwork at first rather than including the punches like in Shodan.

[LastKing]

Thanks for that. I've seen as many of the Rick Horton videos on YouTube as I can find. I really like his way of seeing thing and doing things. I understand the idea of stances being transitions, or, as I understand it, the stance is not something to be executed as a set form, but rather is like a snapshot of a particular point in a technique (if that makes sense), and maybe that's the problem, especially with zen stance, which seems the most distorted and contorted of them all, when held and moved in rather than being moved through, especially when blocks and punches are included.

Interestingly, I saw a video with Rick Horton where he was advocating not locking the back knee, or rather, only locking it when punching, the lock having the ability to move the hips and the punch forward that last few inches.

[shortyafter]

Funny that you all mention Rick Hotton because that’s exactly where my mind went when I read this. I was watching some videos of his a couple of days ago and one that really stuck out to me was one where he says “forget about form”. Actually, I think I was asking myself a similar question as you and the video was entitled “Natural Movement” (link at bottom). He’ll explain better than I but what I got out of it is that if you just do something that feels natural and strong, you’ll probably end up having a better if not “perfect” zen kutsudachi. Overthinking it makes things sloppy whereas just doing something powerful tends to get you closer to where you need to be.

I totally understand the doubt and Lord knows my stance is still weak. But I did notice an immediate difference in my technique after watching this video and applying this mindset.

Here’s the video:

[LLLEARNER]

Thanks for that. I've seen as many of the Rick Horton videos on YouTube as I can find. I really like his way of seeing thing and doing things. I understand the idea of stances being transitions, or, as I understand it, the stance is not something to be executed as a set form, but rather is like a snapshot of a particular point in a technique (if that makes sense), and maybe that's the problem, especially with zen stance, which seems the most distorted and contorted of them all, when held and moved in rather than being moved through, especially when blocks and punches are included.

Interestingly, I saw a video with Rick Horton where he was advocating not locking the back knee, or rather, only locking it when punching, the lock having the ability to move the hips and the punch forward that last few inches.

During a kata, locking the knees can be the difference of that fraction of a second that makes the series look more or less flowy. What Sensei Hotton advocates is using the stored tension at the end of a technique as a spring to launch the next technique.

If I am thinking of it correctly, joints should not lock for that because it takes the muscular tension out of the equation. For example (MY INTERPRETATION) in Heian Nidan movement 2 should use the pectorals to squeeze together rather than just the arms. I find this allows me to oppose with the shoulder blade muscles so they just require the releasing of the tension of the pecs to start movement 3, rather than a reactivation of the back muscles to start the movement.

[LastKing]

The trouble is (which seems how I start a sentence too often these days), in our club, locking that back knee is seen as correct form and anything less is judged down. I'd be more than happy to go with Rick Hotton's way of doing things. I really like his way of feeling it, and get a lot out of his interpretation of karate. One thing I found really helped was his thing of contraction and explosion, so the thing is not just about moving forwards and backwards, limbs in and out, up and down, bit rather smaller and bigger, coming together then moving apart. I het a sense of how dynamic the movement should be. And honestly, it's improved so much in the whole of my karate, but man, that Zen stance, that's the one nut I just can't seem to crack.

One other thing though, after endless YouTubing, is that I think I actually move too quickly. I've always been told that men's kata should be aggressive, and with that I've put a lot of umph into it, but I see some classic videos of Japanese karateka, and I notice it's only really the blocks and punches which have the aggression, the movement is actually relatively slow. That might help as I find the stance seems to suffer when the movement itself is too aggressive. The next time I'm in the dojo and can see in the mirrors, I'm going to try and slow the movements and see if that improves things.

Once again, many thanks l, chaps.

[LLLEARNER]

The trouble is (which seems how I start a sentence too often these days), in our club, locking that back knee is seen as correct form and anything less is judged down. I'd be more than happy to go with Rick Hotton's way of doing things. I really like his way of feeling it, and get a lot out of his interpretation of karate. One thing I found really helped was his thing of contraction and explosion, so the thing is not just about moving forwards and backwards, limbs in and out, up and down, bit rather smaller and bigger, coming together then moving apart. I het a sense of how dynamic the movement should be. And honestly, it's improved so much in the whole of my karate, but man, that Zen stance, that's the one nut I just can't seem to crack.

One other thing though, after endless YouTubing, is that I think I actually move too quickly. I've always been told that men's kata should be aggressive, and with that I've put a lot of umph into it, but I see some classic videos of Japanese karateka, and I notice it's only really the blocks and punches which have the aggression, the movement is actually relatively slow. That might help as I find the stance seems to suffer when the movement itself is too aggressive. The next time I'm in the dojo and can see in the mirrors, I'm going to try and slow the movements and see if that improves things.

Once again, many thanks l, chaps.

Again, this is my interpretation...YMMMV

During kata, and Kihon when moving through stances with punches and "blocks", there is a timing difference between my lower and upper body. My punch is faster than my step (there is less distance to travel). When I am near finishing the zen stance, I start my punch. I time it so my punch finishes just after my stance completes and my hips drive the punch forward. My Sensei never told us to lock our knees, but the keep them slightly flexed. For me that is having my back leg close to being locked, but still with tension in my muscles, creating rigidity. I also find that muscle tension helps drive the hip swivel. I am not trying to contradict your sensei. I am sure he has been working this stuff far longer than I. An option you have is to talk to him privately to understand the reasoning he looks for the locked leg. In the end it is your karate, and you have to decide how you want to do it. But, respectfully discussing the reasoning behind a particular subject outside of class would be the best approach. Asking how it should feel might be a good respectful ice breaker.

If you keep working at it, I suspect one night when you are trying to sleep your solution will pop into your head. Keep a notepad and pen handy by your bed.

[sensei8]

As an Okinawa MA style, we're more upright in our Oi-Zuki than our Karate counterparts. Nonetheless, our force is earned from the body moving forward as we close the distance, in which, things are only awkward when ones a beginner.

[LastKing]

Yet more youtubing.

Here's something I found interesting:

Now, in relation to Zen stance: taking the above into account and Rick Hotton in another video who suggests not locking the back knee so as to give the hip room to move forward with a punch, it seems to me that in a fully extended zen stance (as we practice), the hip can only move down and forward 45 deg when throwing a reverse punch (try it). That in itself is not a bad thing, as from my boxing days I know that you should drop into punches rather than rise. But, with the back leg locked in zen, when pushing the rear hip forward, the forward hip tends to rotate backwards (as in above video), thus robbing the move of its potential power.

I know that the stances in Shotokan karate are stylised "snapshots" of various parts of a technique, so should not probably make such a thing of it, and personally I'd be happy to ditch the practice of form over function which modern "traditional" Shotokan karate seems to have ossified into and revert to a more fluid, intuitive, practical style as demonstrated here:

But as said, in my club unfortunately, and near all the karate clubs of which I've had personal experience, things are done for the look of it rather than the effectiveness of it.

As it stands, I can do a fine, static zen, and move in a way which follows the rules, but doesn't look or feel particularly graceful, but man it's hard work, and mainly in a "why am I even bothering with this," sense.

[Wastelander]

In my opinion, when you are more concerned with the way something looks over how it works, you've lost the form/function ratio that makes karate a martial art, and not a performance art.

Zenkutsu-dachi, in particular, is actually something I've been meaning to put together a video on. I actually started recording it on Saturday, interestingly enough. Hopefully sometime this week I can finish that up. I did somewhat cover it as a topic in a recent article I wrote, though. To just quickly address a couple of your points:

There is a difference between the rear leg in zenkutsu-dachi being "straight," and the leg being "locked." You should never lock your joints--it's unhealthy and you can't move again until you unlock them.

The longer/lower your stance, the less rotation of the hips is possible, so a long/low zenkutsu-dachi is going to severely limit your rotational power. It accounts for this by moving your bodyweight forward/downward, instead.