Imminent school split

[mushybees]

There's a lot to think about. I can't address each of your points in turn but I have taken them on board.

It's very possible the new club doesn't work out and the door will certainly be closed to return. If that happens I may need to find a different art.

The club as it stands is like every other dojo in the area. It's a very family orientated school which is great for most people and if I leave I'll essentially be making the decision to either practice the art in a more serious, austere manner or move on.

Wado is taught in as many ways as there are schools. Very few in my part of the world train wado as a serious bujutsu with koryu leanings.

Within wado is a goldmine of jujutsu principles Ohtsuka incorporated from his studies in Shindo Yoshin Ryu jujutsu, some of it is very subtle and can't be taught in a hall with 20+ kids vying for the instructor attention.

The more children and casual students in the class, the more generic and sports orientated the content becomes.

I would love to persue these avenues whilst remaining with the CI but as much as I like him, he has some foibles. Not least of which is his dislike for his students cross training or attending seminars he hasn't arranged through the club.

DWx has touched on my biggest concern. I think I will stagnate if I stay where I am.

The departing instructor isn't my friend. He's friendly but he's uncompromising and it's something I appreciate.

I really am trying to justify a dispassionate, martial arts only decision.

I'm trying to find a way of leaving my current dojo to go train with someone who has become a rival whilst maintaining our friendship. It's probably not possible but if I stay just out of loyalty I might end up resenting that friendship.

I really have messed up in mixing friendship with the student/sensei relationship and it's not a mistake I'll be repeating.

[JR 137]

There's a lot to think about. I can't address each of your points in turn but I have taken them on board.

It's very possible the new club doesn't work out and the door will certainly be closed to return. If that happens I may need to find a different art.

The club as it stands is like every other dojo in the area. It's a very family orientated school which is great for most people and if I leave I'll essentially be making the decision to either practice the art in a more serious, austere manner or move on.

Wado is taught in as many ways as there are schools. Very few in my part of the world train wado as a serious bujutsu with koryu leanings.

Within wado is a goldmine of jujutsu principles Ohtsuka incorporated from his studies in Shindo Yoshin Ryu jujutsu, some of it is very subtle and can't be taught in a hall with 20+ kids vying for the instructor attention.

The more children and casual students in the class, the more generic and sports orientated the content becomes.

I would love to persue these avenues whilst remaining with the CI but as much as I like him, he has some foibles. Not least of which is his dislike for his students cross training or attending seminars he hasn't arranged through the club.

DWx has touched on my biggest concern. I think I will stagnate if I stay where I am.

The departing instructor isn't my friend. He's friendly but he's uncompromising and it's something I appreciate.

I really am trying to justify a dispassionate, martial arts only decision.

I'm trying to find a way of leaving my current dojo to go train with someone who has become a rival whilst maintaining our friendship. It's probably not possible but if I stay just out of loyalty I might end up resenting that friendship.

I really have messed up in mixing friendship with the student/sensei relationship and it's not a mistake I'll be repeating.

I don’t think you’ve messed up by becoming personal friends with your sensei. We’re all human after all and the split isn’t something you saw coming.

As far as austere training, is that something you want long term? I don’t know how long I would enjoy training under someone who was like a taskmaster. While I want serious training, I have to enjoy being there and have fun with it. If it’s “all work and no play” and no one’s ever having a good time and joking around occasionally, it would end up becoming another chore to me.

But again, I’ve never been in either teacher’s class to say I’d prefer one or the other. And we’re all looking for something different. Just things to consider.

[sensei8]

In any splitting up of any MA school, I believe that the students suffer the most for a wide variety of reasons. It's never a peaceful transition across the board. The dust will eventually settle, and what remains will either add to or take away or do nothing for the Student Body, as well as the school itself.

Hurt feelings are often hard and slow to mend.

[KarateNewbie]

There's a lot to think about. I can't address each of your points in turn but I have taken them on board.

It's very possible the new club doesn't work out and the door will certainly be closed to return. If that happens I may need to find a different art.

The club as it stands is like every other dojo in the area. It's a very family orientated school which is great for most people and if I leave I'll essentially be making the decision to either practice the art in a more serious, austere manner or move on.

Wado is taught in as many ways as there are schools. Very few in my part of the world train wado as a serious bujutsu with koryu leanings.

Within wado is a goldmine of jujutsu principles Ohtsuka incorporated from his studies in Shindo Yoshin Ryu jujutsu, some of it is very subtle and can't be taught in a hall with 20+ kids vying for the instructor attention.

The more children and casual students in the class, the more generic and sports orientated the content becomes.

I would love to persue these avenues whilst remaining with the CI but as much as I like him, he has some foibles. Not least of which is his dislike for his students cross training or attending seminars he hasn't arranged through the club.

DWx has touched on my biggest concern. I think I will stagnate if I stay where I am.

The departing instructor isn't my friend. He's friendly but he's uncompromising and it's something I appreciate.

I really am trying to justify a dispassionate, martial arts only decision.

I'm trying to find a way of leaving my current dojo to go train with someone who has become a rival whilst maintaining our friendship. It's probably not possible but if I stay just out of loyalty I might end up resenting that friendship.

I really have messed up in mixing friendship with the student/sensei relationship and it's not a mistake I'll be repeating.

I think you're decision is already made - you just need to come to terms with it. It's a tough one.

[bushido_man96]

Just something to think about. Not advice per se but something to think about nonetheless.

What does rank matter?

To me, rank is in some ways a measure of ego. That's not to say that high rank means nothing. Most of the martial artists I aspire to are higher rank than me. Yet some have no rank, because they are in a school that doesn't grade people. They have epic skills but no rank.

In the club I'm in, the CI is 5th Dan in TSD. He has no experience at all in any other style. He is a good man and a good martial artist with a lot to teach. But within our club we also have a second Dan. Who also holds a 2nd Dan in taekwondo, a third Dan in aikido, and no grade at all but experience from seminars in judo and jujitsu and wado. He also has military experience.

I make no judgement. I'll just leave that there for folks to think about.

You bring up some very valid points here. You have to assess what it is the instructor has to teach you, and just what the instructor's rank is. You want to get the most you can out of the instructor, and you want it to be what you want the most.

[sensei8]

Just something to think about. Not advice per se but something to think about nonetheless.

What does rank matter?

To me, rank is in some ways a measure of ego. That's not to say that high rank means nothing. Most of the martial artists I aspire to are higher rank than me. Yet some have no rank, because they are in a school that doesn't grade people. They have epic skills but no rank.

In the club I'm in, the CI is 5th Dan in TSD. He has no experience at all in any other style. He is a good man and a good martial artist with a lot to teach. But within our club we also have a second Dan. Who also holds a 2nd Dan in taekwondo, a third Dan in aikido, and no grade at all but experience from seminars in judo and jujitsu and wado. He also has military experience.

I make no judgement. I'll just leave that there for folks to think about.

You bring up some very valid points here. You have to assess what it is the instructor has to teach you, and just what the instructor's rank is. You want to get the most you can out of the instructor, and you want it to be what you want the most.

I'd not look at the rank much because not all black belts, no matter rank, can teach, nor should they ever try. They've the solid technicians through and through, but they've not the minimum of an idea as to how to effectively convey the methodology/ideology as far as teaching is concerned.

That's where the rubber meets the road. Both the CI/Instructor(s) and the student have to meet expectations because it's not a one-sided relationship; take two...one to teach, and one to learn...both accountable for their expectations.

Students know what they want from their CI, and if the student believes that that CI isn't providing it, then the student has the right to seek out for a different CI; after all, the student is the customer.

Is that CI providing the student with what the student wants??

Is the student experienced enough to know if the CI isn't providing what the student wants??

What the student wants doesn't have to be inline with what the CI wants, however, the student has to be accountable for their own training and practice. The student came to the CI, and the CI didn't come to the student; who knows versus who doesn't, and those have to meet somehow in the middle of the road so that both are satisfied, but there's a teacher and then there's a student...know you role.

[MatsuShinshii]

Just something to think about. Not advice per se but something to think about nonetheless.

What does rank matter?

To me, rank is in some ways a measure of ego. That's not to say that high rank means nothing. Most of the martial artists I aspire to are higher rank than me. Yet some have no rank, because they are in a school that doesn't grade people. They have epic skills but no rank.

In the club I'm in, the CI is 5th Dan in TSD. He has no experience at all in any other style. He is a good man and a good martial artist with a lot to teach. But within our club we also have a second Dan. Who also holds a 2nd Dan in taekwondo, a third Dan in aikido, and no grade at all but experience from seminars in judo and jujitsu and wado. He also has military experience.

I make no judgement. I'll just leave that there for folks to think about.

You bring up some very valid points here. You have to assess what it is the instructor has to teach you, and just what the instructor's rank is. You want to get the most you can out of the instructor, and you want it to be what you want the most.

To the bold underlined above. Rank does not equal good instruction. I have known very high grades that could not teach effectively and conversely I have know lower Yudansha grades that were exceptional teachers.

I would agree that, "in theory", the higher the grade the better the teacher however this is not always true. Grade really has nothing to do with teaching ability.

Grade translates to knowledge. This is important in teaching but what makes a good teacher is the ability to convey their message in an efficient way that translates to their students. Knowing the entire syllabus and being able to teach it in a way that your students understand it are truly two separate things.

[bushido_man96]

Just something to think about. Not advice per se but something to think about nonetheless.

What does rank matter?

To me, rank is in some ways a measure of ego. That's not to say that high rank means nothing. Most of the martial artists I aspire to are higher rank than me. Yet some have no rank, because they are in a school that doesn't grade people. They have epic skills but no rank.

In the club I'm in, the CI is 5th Dan in TSD. He has no experience at all in any other style. He is a good man and a good martial artist with a lot to teach. But within our club we also have a second Dan. Who also holds a 2nd Dan in taekwondo, a third Dan in aikido, and no grade at all but experience from seminars in judo and jujitsu and wado. He also has military experience.

I make no judgement. I'll just leave that there for folks to think about.

You bring up some very valid points here. You have to assess what it is the instructor has to teach you, and just what the instructor's rank is. You want to get the most you can out of the instructor, and you want it to be what you want the most.

To the bold underlined above. Rank does not equal good instruction. I have known very high grades that could not teach effectively and conversely I have know lower Yudansha grades that were exceptional teachers.

I would agree that, "in theory", the higher the grade the better the teacher however this is not always true. Grade really has nothing to do with teaching ability.

Grade translates to knowledge. This is important in teaching but what makes a good teacher is the ability to convey their message in an efficient way that translates to their students. Knowing the entire syllabus and being able to teach it in a way that your students understand it are truly two separate things.

Sorry all, I had a mis-typing error here that has totally misconstrued what I was trying to say.

What I meant was, NOT just consider the instructor's rank.

Hope that clears things up.

[mushybees]

Thanks to everyone for their insights.

Time for an update maybe. The split has occured though not the way I thought it would. The instructor has left though not in the direct and, I would say, honourable I was expecting.

There's been a lot of backbiting from the departing instructor which has lead to concerns about his character. This has been made more apparent by the dignified way the CI has handled it who has refrained from disparaging anyone.

There may be a ceiling to what I can learn in my current dojo but I don't think I'll be touching it for a couple of years yet so I'm staying put for a while.

It's been a bit of an eye opener tbh. I've heard a lot about the Machiavellian antics of other clubs and organisations but I've never seen it up close. For all the talk of humility, raging egos rule supreme.

[sensei8]

Everyone wants to be the boss and everyone wants to be known as the best, and this is perfectly fine, but how one goes about that, well, that's where the rubber meets the road.

From a distance, what you're witnessing, is confusing, but when you're in the midst of it, well, that's alarming because students are understandably uncertain about quite a many things while they wait for the dust to settle.

Again, imho, the Student Body is hurt the worse in things of this magnitude.