Who looks for bunkai?

[sensei8]

Resistive training when both partners know exactly what is going to happen is just like pushups or weight training. You will become very good at performing a specific action. If that specific action happens to be called for in the first couple of seconds of an attack, great.

Not the way that we do it!! The initial is known, but after that, it's not, hence, the battle isn't known by either student, nor is the outcome. And yes, that's the MA...performing a specific action is expected...TECHNIQUES, whatever that might be at that particular moment.

I think perhaps I've misunderstood traditional martial all this time. I assumed there was real life practical value in it as a combat system. Thank you for helping me to see my error. I'm sure traditional styles can be practical, if approached with an open mind, but I now understand that we are expected to just have blind faith that somebody else has already done all the testing, so we don't need to, and should bow to the senior grade and say yes sir and go home happy that if we get mugged on the way home, it will be OK, because our mugger will stand at arms length, bow to us, drop into a formal stance, then throw a straight punch, so we'll all know exactly what to do.

Please don't group all of us traditional MAist together on the same cloth and/or with the same broad brush stroke!! I was raised, and am still, a traditional MAist, but the manner of which we/I was/were trained by Soke and Dai-Soke, is very much realistic and practical.

Why??

Our lives depend on it each and every time!!

The MA is an ongoing testing ground, in which I'm still an active participant of because NOTHING is written in stone...NOTHING!! Therefore, it's up to the student to take what they've been and/or being taught, and greatly expand upon it because, once again, their live depends on it.

What the student is taught is how to give that door of opportunity that swift kick to get that door opened, but that student must be willing to have the guts to first go through the open door, and then to bust that door wide open with their own testing grounds.

Students are given the tools, but how the student uses them is up to that student, traditional or not!!

I'm a Senior Dan, but what I've given to my students is the free will to expand what it is that they've learned from me. But they have to have the guts to accept it or discard it for their MA betterment. I've given them all of the puzzle pieces but it's up to them to put them all together so that their picture becomes much more clearer to them, not for me, but for them!!

[RW]

I feel that the context and purpose of kata has been misunderstood.

Some martial arts were developed back when not everybody could read or write. And back then there were no youtube videos

So how do you pass a fighting style generation by generation? Well, you learn the moves. But how do you know you're remembering them all?

You have to learn moves, stances, ways to move from point A to point B... what do you do? Well, you turn them into a kata!

A kata is like an encyclopedia entry about its martial art. "Shotokan karate has age ukes, shuto ukes, tsukis,zen kutsu dachi positions and.. etc etc"

Bunkai is important in the sense that it will remind you that the age ukes you are doing to the are are supposed to block a yodan tsuki coming at you, or that the 4 shuto moves in the end of your kata are knife hand blocks blocking a strike, and not a shuto uchi.

Knowing the bunkai won't automatically make you competent on its moves, that's more well suited for a drill, where somebody punches you full speed and you try to pull off a specific block or counter strike, so for example, doing a yodan age uke block in a bunkai is good, but practicing said yodan age uke a 1000 times vs an incoming tsuki in ippon kumite will get you the practice you need, the bunkai was just the form to pass down that knowledge.

[RW]

So the question remains. Should we take kata literally or not?

Yes!!

Why??

It's part of the methodology, and the starting point of the syllabus/curriculum. Any system has to have a starting point to be considered as well as for it to grow.

However, the effectiveness must be harshly tested thoroughly and without any ambiguity whatsoever.

Imho.

How? I can practice blocking a mid section front kick and countering with a punch as many times as I like. Then tell myself I've proven that application to be effective. Then it all falls apart the first time a real attacker kicks from a different angle or throws a punch first or is stronger and faster than me.

If we take kata literally, we can't possibly test their effectiveness. Kata is orderly, violence is not.

I think here is where we have to see the art's practice in its totality. Kihon, Kata, Kumite.

Kihon: You practice mid section blocks to the air. Basically, you get the motion and muscle memory down, it's sort of like "wax on, wax off, Daniel San".

Kata: You incorporate said mid section block with a series of other moves and stances. You're using said move in a context of other moves and movements. You learn a bunkai that will teach you conceptually (not practically, big difference) that when a foot is coming to your belly, you move it out of the way with said block.

Kumite: Free sparring, application of the concept in a chaotic, not predetermined fashion. This is your application and stress testing.

To these 3 K methods (kihon, kata, kumite) I'd add the drills. Different arts give it different names. Some karate schools call them Ippon Kumite. Some kempo schools call them defensive maneuvers or combinations. This is where some guy tries to punch you and actually make contact and you're supposed to use said technique (in this case, the mid block) to defend yourself. This ippon kumite bridges the gap between kata (predetermined, mostly done vs the air) and kumite (not predetermined, contact is expected, there's a resisting opponent).

[OneKickWonder]

Resistive training when both partners know exactly what is going to happen is just like pushups or weight training. You will become very good at performing a specific action. If that specific action happens to be called for in the first couple of seconds of an attack, great.

Not the way that we do it!! The initial is known, but after that, it's not, hence, the battle isn't known by either student, nor is the outcome. And yes, that's the MA...performing a specific action is expected...TECHNIQUES, whatever that might be at that particular moment.

I think perhaps I've misunderstood traditional martial all this time. I assumed there was real life practical value in it as a combat system. Thank you for helping me to see my error. I'm sure traditional styles can be practical, if approached with an open mind, but I now understand that we are expected to just have blind faith that somebody else has already done all the testing, so we don't need to, and should bow to the senior grade and say yes sir and go home happy that if we get mugged on the way home, it will be OK, because our mugger will stand at arms length, bow to us, drop into a formal stance, then throw a straight punch, so we'll all know exactly what to do.

Please don't group all of us traditional MAist together on the same cloth and/or with the same broad brush stroke!! I was raised, and am still, a traditional MAist, but the manner of which we/I was/were trained by Soke and Dai-Soke, is very much realistic and practical.

Why??

Our lives depend on it each and every time!!

The MA is an ongoing testing ground, in which I'm still an active participant of because NOTHING is written in stone...NOTHING!! Therefore, it's up to the student to take what they've been and/or being taught, and greatly expand upon it because, once again, their live depends on it.

What the student is taught is how to give that door of opportunity that swift kick to get that door opened, but that student must be willing to have the guts to first go through the open door, and then to bust that door wide open with their own testing grounds.

Students are given the tools, but how the student uses them is up to that student, traditional or not!!

I'm a Senior Dan, but what I've given to my students is the free will to expand what it is that they've learned from me. But they have to have the guts to accept it or discard it for their MA betterment. I've given them all of the puzzle pieces but it's up to them to put them all together so that their picture becomes much more clearer to them, not for me, but for them!!

How will the student learn to use the tools? How will they expand upon what you've taught them? When will they get that opportunity?

Should they go out to bars and deliberately cause trouble so as to create the opportunity to practice? Should they beat up random people? Probably not.

As students, we pay someone money to train us to fight. I'm sure some might go to learn kata, but very often people go with the exception that having spent many thousands of pounds/dollars and several years saying yes sir and bowing and placing their full trust in the guy at the front, they'll become proficient fighters. The posters and adverts usually imply that too.

The reason to keep going to a class rather than just copying YouTube demos is to have an instructor see and correct you, but perhaps even more importantly, to have a room full of like minded people to practice against and with.

It's not unreasonable for a paying student to expect to be taught what was promised.

To say that kata should be taken literally, then it's up to the student to expand upon it, without creating that opportunity in the training hall, is effectively only given them half of what was promised or alluded to at the time of accepting their money when they first come to train.

[RW]

Resistive training when both partners know exactly what is going to happen is just like pushups or weight training. You will become very good at performing a specific action. If that specific action happens to be called for in the first couple of seconds of an attack, great.

Not the way that we do it!! The initial is known, but after that, it's not, hence, the battle isn't known by either student, nor is the outcome. And yes, that's the MA...performing a specific action is expected...TECHNIQUES, whatever that might be at that particular moment.

I think perhaps I've misunderstood traditional martial all this time. I assumed there was real life practical value in it as a combat system. Thank you for helping me to see my error. I'm sure traditional styles can be practical, if approached with an open mind, but I now understand that we are expected to just have blind faith that somebody else has already done all the testing, so we don't need to, and should bow to the senior grade and say yes sir and go home happy that if we get mugged on the way home, it will be OK, because our mugger will stand at arms length, bow to us, drop into a formal stance, then throw a straight punch, so we'll all know exactly what to do.

Please don't group all of us traditional MAist together on the same cloth and/or with the same broad brush stroke!! I was raised, and am still, a traditional MAist, but the manner of which we/I was/were trained by Soke and Dai-Soke, is very much realistic and practical.

Why??

Our lives depend on it each and every time!!

The MA is an ongoing testing ground, in which I'm still an active participant of because NOTHING is written in stone...NOTHING!! Therefore, it's up to the student to take what they've been and/or being taught, and greatly expand upon it because, once again, their live depends on it.

What the student is taught is how to give that door of opportunity that swift kick to get that door opened, but that student must be willing to have the guts to first go through the open door, and then to bust that door wide open with their own testing grounds.

Students are given the tools, but how the student uses them is up to that student, traditional or not!!

I'm a Senior Dan, but what I've given to my students is the free will to expand what it is that they've learned from me. But they have to have the guts to accept it or discard it for their MA betterment. I've given them all of the puzzle pieces but it's up to them to put them all together so that their picture becomes much more clearer to them, not for me, but for them!!

How will the student learn to use the tools? How will they expand upon what you've taught them? When will they get that opportunity?

Should they go out to bars and deliberately cause trouble so as to create the opportunity to practice? Should they beat up random people? Probably not.

As students, we pay someone money to train us to fight. I'm sure some might go to learn kata, but very often people go with the exception that having spent many thousands of pounds/dollars and several years saying yes sir and bowing and placing their full trust in the guy at the front, they'll become proficient fighters. The posters and adverts usually imply that too.

The reason to keep going to a class rather than just copying YouTube demos is to have an instructor see and correct you, but perhaps even more importantly, to have a room full of like minded people to practice against and with.

It's not unreasonable for a paying student to expect to be taught what was promised.

To say that kata should be taken literally, then it's up to the student to expand upon it, without creating that opportunity in the training hall, is effectively only given them half of what was promised or alluded to at the time of accepting their money when they first come to train.

IMO the only martial arts that should be taken literally are actually fight sports and not traditional martial arts: Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

When you're throwing a jab in boxing, that's the way you should use it in the ring. When you're throwing a kick in muay thai, that is how you're supposed to do it in the ring. When you pull an arm bar, that's how you're meant to do it.

But any other arts? Not really, no. You're not supposed to chamber the non-punching hand next to your wrist or ribs in a real fight. Who would ever get in a super low zenkutsu dachi or shiko dachi stance in a bar fight? I, for one, would never think "incoming punch! Better put my fist next to my ear so I can then perform an ude uke block!"

No karate practitioner out there will tell you "you should chamber your hand next to your hips on a real fight, and you should definitely punch in using zenkutsudachi". And that means... you're supposed to adapt said techniques, making them not literal.

[OneKickWonder]

Resistive training when both partners know exactly what is going to happen is just like pushups or weight training. You will become very good at performing a specific action. If that specific action happens to be called for in the first couple of seconds of an attack, great.

Not the way that we do it!! The initial is known, but after that, it's not, hence, the battle isn't known by either student, nor is the outcome. And yes, that's the MA...performing a specific action is expected...TECHNIQUES, whatever that might be at that particular moment.

I think perhaps I've misunderstood traditional martial all this time. I assumed there was real life practical value in it as a combat system. Thank you for helping me to see my error. I'm sure traditional styles can be practical, if approached with an open mind, but I now understand that we are expected to just have blind faith that somebody else has already done all the testing, so we don't need to, and should bow to the senior grade and say yes sir and go home happy that if we get mugged on the way home, it will be OK, because our mugger will stand at arms length, bow to us, drop into a formal stance, then throw a straight punch, so we'll all know exactly what to do.

Please don't group all of us traditional MAist together on the same cloth and/or with the same broad brush stroke!! I was raised, and am still, a traditional MAist, but the manner of which we/I was/were trained by Soke and Dai-Soke, is very much realistic and practical.

Why??

Our lives depend on it each and every time!!

The MA is an ongoing testing ground, in which I'm still an active participant of because NOTHING is written in stone...NOTHING!! Therefore, it's up to the student to take what they've been and/or being taught, and greatly expand upon it because, once again, their live depends on it.

What the student is taught is how to give that door of opportunity that swift kick to get that door opened, but that student must be willing to have the guts to first go through the open door, and then to bust that door wide open with their own testing grounds.

Students are given the tools, but how the student uses them is up to that student, traditional or not!!

I'm a Senior Dan, but what I've given to my students is the free will to expand what it is that they've learned from me. But they have to have the guts to accept it or discard it for their MA betterment. I've given them all of the puzzle pieces but it's up to them to put them all together so that their picture becomes much more clearer to them, not for me, but for them!!

How will the student learn to use the tools? How will they expand upon what you've taught them? When will they get that opportunity?

Should they go out to bars and deliberately cause trouble so as to create the opportunity to practice? Should they beat up random people? Probably not.

As students, we pay someone money to train us to fight. I'm sure some might go to learn kata, but very often people go with the exception that having spent many thousands of pounds/dollars and several years saying yes sir and bowing and placing their full trust in the guy at the front, they'll become proficient fighters. The posters and adverts usually imply that too.

The reason to keep going to a class rather than just copying YouTube demos is to have an instructor see and correct you, but perhaps even more importantly, to have a room full of like minded people to practice against and with.

It's not unreasonable for a paying student to expect to be taught what was promised.

To say that kata should be taken literally, then it's up to the student to expand upon it, without creating that opportunity in the training hall, is effectively only given them half of what was promised or alluded to at the time of accepting their money when they first come to train.

IMO the only martial arts that should be taken literally are actually fight sports and not traditional martial arts: Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

When you're throwing a jab in boxing, that's the way you should use it in the ring. When you're throwing a kick in muay thai, that is how you're supposed to do it in the ring. When you pull an arm bar, that's how you're meant to do it.

But any other arts? Not really, no. You're not supposed to chamber the non-punching hand next to your wrist or ribs in a real fight. Who would ever get in a super low zenkutsu dachi or shiko dachi stance in a bar fight? I, for one, would never think "incoming punch! Better put my fist next to my ear so I can then perform an ude uke block!"

No karate practitioner out there will tell you "you should chamber your hand next to your hips on a real fight, and you should definitely punch in using zenkutsudachi". And that means... you're supposed to adapt said techniques, making them not literal.

That's exactly what several karate folks here and telling us. They are saying that kata and their bunkai are literal.

[RW]

Resistive training when both partners know exactly what is going to happen is just like pushups or weight training. You will become very good at performing a specific action. If that specific action happens to be called for in the first couple of seconds of an attack, great.

Not the way that we do it!! The initial is known, but after that, it's not, hence, the battle isn't known by either student, nor is the outcome. And yes, that's the MA...performing a specific action is expected...TECHNIQUES, whatever that might be at that particular moment.

I think perhaps I've misunderstood traditional martial all this time. I assumed there was real life practical value in it as a combat system. Thank you for helping me to see my error. I'm sure traditional styles can be practical, if approached with an open mind, but I now understand that we are expected to just have blind faith that somebody else has already done all the testing, so we don't need to, and should bow to the senior grade and say yes sir and go home happy that if we get mugged on the way home, it will be OK, because our mugger will stand at arms length, bow to us, drop into a formal stance, then throw a straight punch, so we'll all know exactly what to do.

Please don't group all of us traditional MAist together on the same cloth and/or with the same broad brush stroke!! I was raised, and am still, a traditional MAist, but the manner of which we/I was/were trained by Soke and Dai-Soke, is very much realistic and practical.

Why??

Our lives depend on it each and every time!!

The MA is an ongoing testing ground, in which I'm still an active participant of because NOTHING is written in stone...NOTHING!! Therefore, it's up to the student to take what they've been and/or being taught, and greatly expand upon it because, once again, their live depends on it.

What the student is taught is how to give that door of opportunity that swift kick to get that door opened, but that student must be willing to have the guts to first go through the open door, and then to bust that door wide open with their own testing grounds.

Students are given the tools, but how the student uses them is up to that student, traditional or not!!

I'm a Senior Dan, but what I've given to my students is the free will to expand what it is that they've learned from me. But they have to have the guts to accept it or discard it for their MA betterment. I've given them all of the puzzle pieces but it's up to them to put them all together so that their picture becomes much more clearer to them, not for me, but for them!!

How will the student learn to use the tools? How will they expand upon what you've taught them? When will they get that opportunity?

Should they go out to bars and deliberately cause trouble so as to create the opportunity to practice? Should they beat up random people? Probably not.

As students, we pay someone money to train us to fight. I'm sure some might go to learn kata, but very often people go with the exception that having spent many thousands of pounds/dollars and several years saying yes sir and bowing and placing their full trust in the guy at the front, they'll become proficient fighters. The posters and adverts usually imply that too.

The reason to keep going to a class rather than just copying YouTube demos is to have an instructor see and correct you, but perhaps even more importantly, to have a room full of like minded people to practice against and with.

It's not unreasonable for a paying student to expect to be taught what was promised.

To say that kata should be taken literally, then it's up to the student to expand upon it, without creating that opportunity in the training hall, is effectively only given them half of what was promised or alluded to at the time of accepting their money when they first come to train.

IMO the only martial arts that should be taken literally are actually fight sports and not traditional martial arts: Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

When you're throwing a jab in boxing, that's the way you should use it in the ring. When you're throwing a kick in muay thai, that is how you're supposed to do it in the ring. When you pull an arm bar, that's how you're meant to do it.

But any other arts? Not really, no. You're not supposed to chamber the non-punching hand next to your wrist or ribs in a real fight. Who would ever get in a super low zenkutsu dachi or shiko dachi stance in a bar fight? I, for one, would never think "incoming punch! Better put my fist next to my ear so I can then perform an ude uke block!"

No karate practitioner out there will tell you "you should chamber your hand next to your hips on a real fight, and you should definitely punch in using zenkutsudachi". And that means... you're supposed to adapt said techniques, making them not literal.

That's exactly what several karate folks here and telling us. They are saying that kata and their bunkai are literal.

I thought they meant that in the sense of "that age uke is actually an age uke"

[OneKickWonder]

Resistive training when both partners know exactly what is going to happen is just like pushups or weight training. You will become very good at performing a specific action. If that specific action happens to be called for in the first couple of seconds of an attack, great.

Not the way that we do it!! The initial is known, but after that, it's not, hence, the battle isn't known by either student, nor is the outcome. And yes, that's the MA...performing a specific action is expected...TECHNIQUES, whatever that might be at that particular moment.

I think perhaps I've misunderstood traditional martial all this time. I assumed there was real life practical value in it as a combat system. Thank you for helping me to see my error. I'm sure traditional styles can be practical, if approached with an open mind, but I now understand that we are expected to just have blind faith that somebody else has already done all the testing, so we don't need to, and should bow to the senior grade and say yes sir and go home happy that if we get mugged on the way home, it will be OK, because our mugger will stand at arms length, bow to us, drop into a formal stance, then throw a straight punch, so we'll all know exactly what to do.

Please don't group all of us traditional MAist together on the same cloth and/or with the same broad brush stroke!! I was raised, and am still, a traditional MAist, but the manner of which we/I was/were trained by Soke and Dai-Soke, is very much realistic and practical.

Why??

Our lives depend on it each and every time!!

The MA is an ongoing testing ground, in which I'm still an active participant of because NOTHING is written in stone...NOTHING!! Therefore, it's up to the student to take what they've been and/or being taught, and greatly expand upon it because, once again, their live depends on it.

What the student is taught is how to give that door of opportunity that swift kick to get that door opened, but that student must be willing to have the guts to first go through the open door, and then to bust that door wide open with their own testing grounds.

Students are given the tools, but how the student uses them is up to that student, traditional or not!!

I'm a Senior Dan, but what I've given to my students is the free will to expand what it is that they've learned from me. But they have to have the guts to accept it or discard it for their MA betterment. I've given them all of the puzzle pieces but it's up to them to put them all together so that their picture becomes much more clearer to them, not for me, but for them!!

How will the student learn to use the tools? How will they expand upon what you've taught them? When will they get that opportunity?

Should they go out to bars and deliberately cause trouble so as to create the opportunity to practice? Should they beat up random people? Probably not.

As students, we pay someone money to train us to fight. I'm sure some might go to learn kata, but very often people go with the exception that having spent many thousands of pounds/dollars and several years saying yes sir and bowing and placing their full trust in the guy at the front, they'll become proficient fighters. The posters and adverts usually imply that too.

The reason to keep going to a class rather than just copying YouTube demos is to have an instructor see and correct you, but perhaps even more importantly, to have a room full of like minded people to practice against and with.

It's not unreasonable for a paying student to expect to be taught what was promised.

To say that kata should be taken literally, then it's up to the student to expand upon it, without creating that opportunity in the training hall, is effectively only given them half of what was promised or alluded to at the time of accepting their money when they first come to train.

IMO the only martial arts that should be taken literally are actually fight sports and not traditional martial arts: Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

When you're throwing a jab in boxing, that's the way you should use it in the ring. When you're throwing a kick in muay thai, that is how you're supposed to do it in the ring. When you pull an arm bar, that's how you're meant to do it.

But any other arts? Not really, no. You're not supposed to chamber the non-punching hand next to your wrist or ribs in a real fight. Who would ever get in a super low zenkutsu dachi or shiko dachi stance in a bar fight? I, for one, would never think "incoming punch! Better put my fist next to my ear so I can then perform an ude uke block!"

No karate practitioner out there will tell you "you should chamber your hand next to your hips on a real fight, and you should definitely punch in using zenkutsudachi". And that means... you're supposed to adapt said techniques, making them not literal.

That's exactly what several karate folks here and telling us. They are saying that kata and their bunkai are literal.

I thought they meant that in the sense of "that age uke is actually an age uke"

I made the point earlier that attacks may come from different angles or may be in many ways slightly different to how the kata has you position yourself, and therefore kata can only work if it's principles rather than literal. I was told I was wrong. I sought further clarification in several ways. Same answer each time.

[P.A.L]

IMO the only martial arts that should be taken literally are actually fight sports and not traditional martial arts: Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

When you're throwing a jab in boxing, that's the way you should use it in the ring. When you're throwing a kick in muay thai, that is how you're supposed to do it in the ring. When you pull an arm bar, that's how you're meant to do it.

But any other arts? Not really, no. You're not supposed to chamber the non-punching hand next to your wrist or ribs in a real fight. Who would ever get in a super low zenkutsu dachi or shiko dachi stance in a bar fight? I, for one, would never think "incoming punch! Better put my fist next to my ear so I can then perform an ude uke block!"

No karate practitioner out there will tell you "you should chamber your hand next to your hips on a real fight, and you should definitely punch in using zenkutsudachi". And that means... you're supposed to adapt said techniques, making them not literal.

Do you spare like this in the ring?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6uEnFy7zF4

No body said kata is literal. Kata is abstract.

[RW]

IMO the only martial arts that should be taken literally are actually fight sports and not traditional martial arts: Boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ.

When you're throwing a jab in boxing, that's the way you should use it in the ring. When you're throwing a kick in muay thai, that is how you're supposed to do it in the ring. When you pull an arm bar, that's how you're meant to do it.

But any other arts? Not really, no. You're not supposed to chamber the non-punching hand next to your wrist or ribs in a real fight. Who would ever get in a super low zenkutsu dachi or shiko dachi stance in a bar fight? I, for one, would never think "incoming punch! Better put my fist next to my ear so I can then perform an ude uke block!"

No karate practitioner out there will tell you "you should chamber your hand next to your hips on a real fight, and you should definitely punch in using zenkutsudachi". And that means... you're supposed to adapt said techniques, making them not literal.

Do you spare like this in the ring?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6uEnFy7zF4

No body said kata is literal. Kata is abstract.

I'm with you, we agree