Kata as calisthenics

[OneKickWonder]

Done plenty of kata one move, one press up. Was one of Seishi's favorite "warm ups"................

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of kata? Outside of karate, hyung or forms are about the flow from one position to the next. All those lovely stances we practice that serve no purpose if you can't move effectively between them, become relevant in forms as we get to see and feel how they fit into movement. Surely punctuating every move with a pushup must disturb that flow does it not?

[Spartacus Maximus]

Kata in its true form and intended purposes was never meant to be simple physical exercise. Calisthenics and any other athletic development benefits are only secondary and complimentary.

Kata (if practised correctly with intent) is mainly concerned with learning, training and ingraining principles or motion and body mechanics that would allow a person to react and defend against a committed act of violence from a larger, physically stronger angrier foe.

That is what the old timers trained and spent their lives to hopefully pass on. If one cannot accomplish this, kata is just a weird pantomime.

[shortyafter]

Done plenty of kata one move, one press up. Was one of Seishi's favorite "warm ups"................

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of kata? Outside of karate, hyung or forms are about the flow from one position to the next. All those lovely stances we practice that serve no purpose if you can't move effectively between them, become relevant in forms as we get to see and feel how they fit into movement. Surely punctuating every move with a pushup must disturb that flow does it not?

I buy that, and doing the one move/one press-up thing probably isn’t the “ideal” way to practice a kata. But mixing that in occasionally IMO could be a good way to work on building “strong spirit”, especially if it’s done multiple times in a row. Plus the benefit of doing the calisthenics. I could see it.

[OneKickWonder]

Done plenty of kata one move, one press up. Was one of Seishi's favorite "warm ups"................

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of kata? Outside of karate, hyung or forms are about the flow from one position to the next. All those lovely stances we practice that serve no purpose if you can't move effectively between them, become relevant in forms as we get to see and feel how they fit into movement. Surely punctuating every move with a pushup must disturb that flow does it not?

I buy that, and doing the one move/one press-up thing probably isn’t the “ideal” way to practice a kata. But mixing that in occasionally IMO could be a good way to work on building “strong spirit”, especially if it’s done multiple times in a row. Plus the benefit of doing the calisthenics. I could see it.

Fair point. Which kind of gets me thinking. All that getting up and down off the floor, will help to get used to being down and getting up which of course is par for the course in combat.

This further gets me thinking, given that in a realistic fight, it's normal that about half of it will be spent on the floor, in martial arts we practice sending people to the floor, so I wonder if there are any kata/forms that cover getting up asap from the very vulnerable position of being knocked/thrown down. I haven't seen any, but that's not to say that there aren't any. I'm aware that there are many kata/forms in existence that I've not had exposure to.

[singularity6]

I've always thought of calisthenics as warm-up exercises (I believe that's the definition.) I find it challenging to do my forms before I'm warmed up, as my range of motion isn't as great and the fluidity isn't there.

Once I've moved around for a few minutes, I'll do my forms. They are a great exercise!

[OneKickWonder]

I've always thought of calisthenics as warm-up exercises (I believe that's the definition.)

I don't think calisthenics are just warmup exercises, unless I've misunderstood something (always possible).

My understanding is that calisthenics is the study of exercise through movement against resistance from your own bodyweight. Ie exercise that physically conditions and strengthens but requires no equipment. Basically any exercise, but with a healthy dollop of science on top to ensure that the conditioning is targeted rather than sort of haphazard. Forms seems to be the perfect candidate for that.

[JR 137]

Kata in its true form and intended purposes was never meant to be simple physical exercise. Calisthenics and any other athletic development benefits are only secondary and complimentary.

Kata (if practised correctly with intent) is mainly concerned with learning, training and ingraining principles or motion and body mechanics that would allow a person to react and defend against a committed act of violence from a larger, physically stronger angrier foe.

That is what the old timers trained and spent their lives to hopefully pass on. If one cannot accomplish this, kata is just a weird pantomime.

Who’s to say someone can’t do both, kata as “a weird pantomime” AND “practiced correctly with intent?” Would it be heresey to do a push-up between each count during one phase of class, and do kata as however one defines training it correctly during another phase of class?

Doing it in non-traditional/other ways alongside alongside doing it any other way isn’t desecrating it by any means. They weren’t handed down by God or any other deity with explicit instructions to only use them for one single purpose.

[OneKickWonder]

Kata in its true form and intended purposes was never meant to be simple physical exercise. Calisthenics and any other athletic development benefits are only secondary and complimentary.

Kata (if practised correctly with intent) is mainly concerned with learning, training and ingraining principles or motion and body mechanics that would allow a person to react and defend against a committed act of violence from a larger, physically stronger angrier foe.

That is what the old timers trained and spent their lives to hopefully pass on. If one cannot accomplish this, kata is just a weird pantomime.

Who’s to say someone can’t do both, kata as “a weird pantomime” AND “practiced correctly with intent?” Would it be heresey to do a push-up between each count during one phase of class, and do kata as however one defines training it correctly during another phase of class?

Doing it in non-traditional/other ways alongside alongside doing it any other way isn’t desecrating it by any means. They weren’t handed down by God or any other deity with explicit instructions to only use them for one single purpose.

The bold bit put a smile on my face. I wish I dared tell that to certain people and organisations I know.

[Kusotare]

There's a regular ongoing debate about the value of Kata in the modern day, when we don't need to condense the essence of a system into a sort of dance to preserve it anymore. We have video recording and most people can read and write now.

Funakoshi makes a solid point in his book kara te do kyohan. He notes that kata enables the student to practice karate anywhere, even if no equipment or training partners are available.

Any thoughts?

Personally, I think kata / forms / hyung have great value. Not necessarily directly combat related. But physically they offer balance and coordination as well as general conditioning fitness training. They also offer a good opportunity to practice coordinating the breath through a full range of movements. Some find them effective as a form of meditation.

I also think there is a misuse of them in the typical class. At the beginning of class, there's a range of warmup exercises and stretching. Then at some point later in the class, kata / forms are trained as important in their own right. I think we miss a trick here. I personally think a more efficient use of training time, given that we can do stretching and cardio etc outside of class, would be to use kata as the warmup stage. They can be performed at a steady pace to develop strength and balance, or with vigour for cardio. Why not start 'tai chi style', gradually step it up, then 30 minutes in you're not only warmed up and stretched off, you've also had 30 minutes of actual practice under guidance that you wouldn't get at home.

Kinaesthetics - perhaps?

[Fat Cobra]

Spartacus, I agree with you 100%. Well said.

Kata in its true form and intended purposes was never meant to be simple physical exercise. Calisthenics and any other athletic development benefits are only secondary and complimentary.

Kata (if practised correctly with intent) is mainly concerned with learning, training and ingraining principles or motion and body mechanics that would allow a person to react and defend against a committed act of violence from a larger, physically stronger angrier foe.

That is what the old timers trained and spent their lives to hopefully pass on. If one cannot accomplish this, kata is just a weird pantomime.