Are there mutiple forms of kata with same name?

[LastKing]

None of the katas my club practice bear even the slightest resemblance to those which appear on youtube. All the videos online seem the same. Ours are totally different. Are there markedly different versions of, say, Pinan Nidan, or is Pinan Nidan basically Pinan Nidan?

[mushybees]

What style do you train in?

[JR 137]

Practically every school does every kata differently from each other. The differences can range from very minor to very obvious. The more you train and the better you know your own kata, the easier it is to see the differences and the more dramatic those differences seem.

That being said I haven’t seen anyone do something completely unrecognizable, except a few instances where the founder of a system heavily tweaked/reworked a kata. I can think of two off the top of my head - Kyokushin’s Kanku and Gojushiho. Oyama kept the name Kanku for his version, but changed Gojushiho’s name to Sushiho, which is an older alternative pronunciation of 54 steps (Gojushiho is also translated as 54 steps).

If the Pinan/Heian katas are unrecognizable, something seems amiss. When they’re performed, it’s usually quite easy to tell that’s the kata being done. There are definite differences between groups, it I haven’t seen anything unrecognizable. Some schools will switch 1 and 2 (shodan and nidan, sono ichi and sono ni), but I haven’t seen anything too crazy going on. The largest deviation from the mainstream Pinan series I’ve seen is Seiyu Oyata’s schools, and even then they’re easily recognizable.

Any video of what you do?

[Spodo Komodo]

I only really know about Wado Ryu and Shotokan but within those Ryu the Pinan/Heian kata tend not to deviate too much. Maybe a step here or a block exchanged for a punch there but they are relatively new. Older kata such as Kushanku/Kanku (I think that's the Shotokan equivalent) may differ more and even have several forms within a single tradition. Are we talking the same rough shape with a few differences in stance and a few punches and block swapped out or does it look like a different kata entirely?

PS Pinan Nidan and Pinan Shodan are sometimes named the other way round to preserve the numbering in the name since what is traditionally the second kata (Nidan) is usually taught first.

Hah! Beat me to the PS JR!

[OneKickWonder]

Pinnan, or pyung ahn, can be thought of as one form. It was split into 5 parts to make it easier to learn. The second part of the name just refers to the number in the sequence.

The order in which the 5 parts are taught has sometimes been swapped about. So Pinnan nidan to one teacher might be different to Pinnan nidan to another, but overall, one would expect people to that the set as a whole will broadly contain common material, it all the elements of Pinnan.

Except it gets a bit more fiddly. Pinnan is a fairly broad self defence set. It contains strikes and blocks but also more subtle things like footwork and sweeps and some grappling. Different schools place emphasis on different aspects of combat. Some like grappling and take downs. Some prefer forceful linear strikes. Some like to get in close. Some like to create space. Wherever a school places the emphasis in general, will influence their interpretation of the forms.

As a total aside, seeing as Pinnan was quoted as an example

, some useless trivia follows. Pinnan or pyung ahn has no direct translation to English, but is often translated as peace and tranquillity or stillness of mind. Apparently that's rubbish. Apparently the Chinese use the term routinely as a greeting that means something like simply, stay safe. When viewed in this context I think it makes much more sense. As far as combat goes, Pinnan contains very simple but effective moves at all ranges. Almost like a mini style in itself.

[LastKing]

Thanks guys,

Our style, well, that's a tricky one. We have no definitive style but practice some kihon in shotokan, some in a shorter, western fighting stance (the more I see, the more I think we're like the instuctor's personal JKD project, just passed off as traditional, transferrable karate).

Our katas, though, are practiced in Shotokan.

No videos, I'm affraid, but our Pinan Nidan starts in cat, does a double lateral block, sweeps the hands as if unwinding a throat grab, then a push away, repeat other way, then advancing short cat with bock x3, ino to zen stance to right with a double lateral ridge hand block which exchanges, then a front kick, swap to other side and repeat, then turn, outer block and punch x3, horse stance, side kick and upward backfist, same other side, turn, downward block , side kick, low spinning sweep and zen with punch to ground.

Sorry for not knowing the Japanese for the blocks, but we don't do Japanese (why would we, it's not like any other club does - sarcastic tone btw).

It's nothing like any Pinan Nidan, nor Pinan Shodan I can find on line.

[JR 137]

Thanks guys,

Our style, well, that's a tricky one. We have no definitive style but practice some kihon in shotokan, some in a shorter, western fighting stance (the more I see, the more I think we're like the instuctor's personal JKD project, just passed off as traditional, transferrable karate).

Our katas, though, are practiced in Shotokan.

No videos, I'm affraid, but our Pinan Nidan starts in cat, does a double lateral block, sweeps the hands as if unwinding a throat grab, then a push away, repeat other way, then advancing short cat with bock x3, ino to zen stance to right with a double lateral ridge hand block which exchanges, then a front kick, swap to other side and repeat, then turn, outer block and punch x3, horse stance, side kick and upward backfist, same other side, turn, downward block , side kick, low spinning sweep and zen with punch to ground.

Sorry for not knowing the Japanese for the blocks, but we don't do Japanese (why would we, it's not like any other club does - sarcastic tone btw).

It's nothing like any Pinan Nidan, nor Pinan Shodan I can find on line.

The first half of it sounds like Pinan 2 from what you describe, but the “double lateral ridge hand” and on isn’t anything I’ve come across. Is it possibly a Korean form?

Not to sound the wrong way, but I’ve seen videos of several Korean forms that seem like a mashup of Pinan katas of sorts. And is it possible that you were/are doing “Korean karate” rather than Japanese or Okinawan karate? TKD and TSD have often been referred to as Korean karate. Again, it’s not a knock on Korean arts at all, it just gets confusing to people sometimes.

Look up Korean forms online. You might come across it. I don’t remember the names of them, but I’ve seen Korea forms videos that look quite a bit like re-worked Pinan and other Japanese/Okinawan kata.

[G95champ]

Yes many styles share variations of many kata. This will range from style to style, dojo to dojo and organization to organization.

There are many reasons for this. Accidental where student A forgets how his teacher taught him or confusion where they mix up two kata. On purpose where student A changes a techniques because if application practicability or his inability to preform a certin technique. I will also include adjustment in that some add little points of flash for compatwtiin that are not traditional.

This happens at all ranks and ages. Many Shotkan schools call Gojushisho Sho and Goshishi Dai the same or opposite names because of a mix up done by Kanazawa Hirokazu in a tournament/demo.

One of the things I like about Shotokan is that Funakoshi left us a lot of sources to help us with kata. Thus you tend to see Shotokan kata more unified but I'll be the first to tell you ours are very different as well.

Human nature always steps in and remember it's and ART not a science so IMO we should always be trying to interpurtation and adjust what we do to fix the time we live. The style founders were not gods and what they say is not gospel but it's a great platform to build from nd discover for ourselves what they discovered.

[OneKickWonder]

Thanks guys,

Our style, well, that's a tricky one. We have no definitive style but practice some kihon in shotokan, some in a shorter, western fighting stance (the more I see, the more I think we're like the instuctor's personal JKD project, just passed off as traditional, transferrable karate).

Our katas, though, are practiced in Shotokan.

No videos, I'm affraid, but our Pinan Nidan starts in cat, does a double lateral block, sweeps the hands as if unwinding a throat grab, then a push away, repeat other way, then advancing short cat with bock x3, ino to zen stance to right with a double lateral ridge hand block which exchanges, then a front kick, swap to other side and repeat, then turn, outer block and punch x3, horse stance, side kick and upward backfist, same other side, turn, downward block , side kick, low spinning sweep and zen with punch to ground.

Sorry for not knowing the Japanese for the blocks, but we don't do Japanese (why would we, it's not like any other club does - sarcastic tone btw).

It's nothing like any Pinan Nidan, nor Pinan Shodan I can find on line.

Sounds like a mashup. Double ridge hand, front kick and back fist are present in our pyung ahn sah dan. As is the choke but not in the order you describe.

Here it is done a little bit badly.

The side kicks by the way are supposed to be front kicks in the original form I believe.

Does it look familiar?

[G95champ]

Sounds lik a combo of Ganganku and Heian Yondan from the Shotokan schoolse