Goju ryu characteristics

[Hoshin]

Lots of arts influenced each other. But politics are rife in martial arts. Founders or advocates of many styles liked to claim theirs is unique.

my counter to this is that on Okinawa no one claims to be unique. every single Okinawan style is attributed to that persons teachers. so as i stated Shito ryu is well known to have derived from Itosu and Higaonna. there is no mystery about it.

now the claim that Uechi and Goju are unique, that is actually simple to ascertain. prior to the 3 styles (Ryuei ryu- Uechi - Goju ) arriving from China 1890 - into 1900's

the shared kata between the 3 do not exist on Okinawa. the primary styles on Okinawa all derive From Sokon Matsumura and he did not know, practice or teach these kata.

[OneKickWonder]

shaolin shorin ryu

]

It is my understanding, and I may have got this wrong, but I believe shorin is just the Japanese pronunciation of shaolin. And as we all know that ryu just means school, that means that shorin ryu is the school of the Japanese interpretation of shaolin kung fu. And we can ditch the kung fu because that just means skill. So shorin ryu just means school of a style we learn from the guys at shaolin.

Undoubtedly the Japanese would put their own mark on it. But if you watch the shaolin dudes train, compared to the more flowy tai chi style kung fu, you'll see very clear common ground between shaolin kung fu and karate.

[Hoshin]

shaolin shorin ryu

]

It is my understanding, and I may have got this wrong, but I believe shorin is just the Japanese pronunciation of shaolin. And as we all know that ryu just means school, that means that shorin ryu is the school of the Japanese interpretation of shaolin kung fu. And we can ditch the kung fu because that just means skill. So shorin ryu just means school of a style we learn from the guys at shaolin.

Undoubtedly the Japanese would put their own mark on it. But if you watch the shaolin dudes train, compared to the more flowy tai chi style kung fu, you'll see very clear common ground between shaolin kung fu and karate.

i listed more than one style that calls itself shorin ryu. this can be confusing so at times it has been known to use the shaolin in conjunction or the Chuba or othodox. ect. so the person knows what school is being discussed. but yeah its a bit redundant.

as the kung- fu VS karate comment...your take on it is a bit simplified and when you do this it can get confusing.

i would want to be more detailed. i would first want to understand that there is a big difference between main land Japan and Okinawa in terms of karate. they are separate and should not be lumped together. second thing i would want to understand is that there is old and new kung-fu. i would add that anything that is called shaolin today is pretty much a new art and would not resemble the arts karate was derived from. there may be a link to the southern shaolin temple but its mostly folklore and as distant as we humans are to neanderthal. karate or early Te in Okinawa came in a few waves, the really old stuff came with Chinese immigrants to Okinawa the other influx was from native Okinawans traveling to China in the late 1800's early 1900"s. these fighting arts are from Fuchou area and even these arts are rare in China today due to Governmental policy.

however if you want to see the roots of naha-te karate the fukian/ fuchou area still has arts that are not only similar but share the same kata albeit we have to account for changes on both sides over the last 200 years.

[OneKickWonder]

shaolin shorin ryu

]

It is my understanding, and I may have got this wrong, but I believe shorin is just the Japanese pronunciation of shaolin. And as we all know that ryu just means school, that means that shorin ryu is the school of the Japanese interpretation of shaolin kung fu. And we can ditch the kung fu because that just means skill. So shorin ryu just means school of a style we learn from the guys at shaolin.

Undoubtedly the Japanese would put their own mark on it. But if you watch the shaolin dudes train, compared to the more flowy tai chi style kung fu, you'll see very clear common ground between shaolin kung fu and karate.

i listed more than one style that calls itself shorin ryu. this can be confusing so at times it has been known to use the shaolin in conjunction or the Chuba or othodox. ect. so the person knows what school is being discussed. but yeah its a bit redundant.

as the kung- fu VS karate comment...your take on it is a bit simplified and when you do this it can get confusing.

i would want to be more detailed. i would first want to understand that there is a big difference between main land Japan and Okinawa in terms of karate. they are separate and should not be lumped together. second thing i would want to understand is that there is old and new kung-fu. i would add that anything that is called shaolin today is pretty much a new art and would not resemble the arts karate was derived from. there may be a link to the southern shaolin temple but its mostly folklore and as distant as we humans are to neanderthal. karate or early Te in Okinawa came in a few waves, the really old stuff came with Chinese immigrants to Okinawa the other influx was from native Okinawans traveling to China in the late 1800's early 1900"s. these fighting arts are from Fuchou area and even these arts are rare in China today due to Governmental policy.

however if you want to see the roots of naha-te karate the fukian/ fuchou area still has arts that are not only similar but share the same kata albeit we have to account for changes on both sides over the last 200 years.

To the bold, yes I know. I had to simplify for two reasons.

1. I didn't have the time to write an entire volume of books to discuss how trade links and conflict and piracy (the original kind) and pilgrimages and contests and displays moved various skills all around the region influencing each other over centuries, all while politics led to pockets of isolation and skills being refined at a local level and sometimes in secret, and sometimes only for the aristocracy etc, all leading to the styles we recognise today. Others have already written such books.

2. I was trying to illustrate a point in an environment where most contributors would already have a good understanding of the history, and this wanted to keep it brief enough for folks to read in their spare time.

[GojuRyu Bahrain]

...

now the claim that Uechi and Goju are unique, that is actually simple to ascertain. prior to the 3 styles (Ryuei ryu- Uechi - Goju ) arriving from China 1890 - into 1900's

the shared kata between the 3 do not exist on Okinawa. the primary styles on Okinawa all derive From Sokon Matsumura and he did not know, practice or teach these kata.

regarding the bold highlighted: Seisan, Sesan, Seishan, Hangetsu are variations of the same kata. As far as I know this Kata was practiced in all early 1900s Okinawan styles, from Shuri-Te to Naha-te. I don't know when Seishan entered the Shuri-te/Shorin-ryu/Shotokan line but read somewhere that Matsumura already taught it.

Looking at the significant differences between the Shuri-Te and Naha-Te versions it seems to have been introduced to Okinawan Karate quite a few generations earlier.

From this it seems obvious that all Okinawan styles had some cross-fertilization and/or common sources (south China).

[Hoshin]

I didn't have the time to write an entire volume of books to discuss how trade links and conflict and piracy (the original kind) and pilgrimages and contests and displays moved various skills all around the region influencing each other over centuries, all while politics led to pockets of isolation and skills being refined at a local level and sometimes in secret, and sometimes only for the aristocracy etc, all leading to the styles we recognise today. Others have already written such books.

 

2. I was trying to illustrate a point in an environment where most contributors would already have a good understanding of the history, and this wanted to keep it brief enough for folks to read in their spare time.

which is all a very fair statement. except your missing one of my key points. while all this transfer of knowledge was happening over the "centuries" Kanbun Uechi was no where near the island of Okinawa. except for the last year or two of his life he never even lived on the island. so uechi ryu was a Chinese system brought to Okinawa in 1948.

could Uechi influenced other styles during the 1930's in main land Japan yes sure, or other styles though the 1950's on Okinawa again yes. but from anyone who knows Uechi ryu there is no stylistic evidence that other styles influenced Uechi....EXCEPT one thing ,,we added a round house kick during the early 1960's because it looked good for demos. but its not in any part of the curriculum.

[Chunmonchek]

OneKickWonder,

One thing to consider/be aware of is that there are different types of "Goju"...primarily, Okinawan Goju, Japanese Goju and American Goju, all with different "flavor". And even the various Okinawan Goju lineages have different "tastes".

If your training includes Southern Chinese Martial Arts, I would think that Okinawan Goju would appeal to you.

I've been around a bit, and have settled on training Okinawan Goju Ryu and Matayoshi Kobudo...but then again...horses for courses...

[MatsuShinshii]

...

now the claim that Uechi and Goju are unique, that is actually simple to ascertain. prior to the 3 styles (Ryuei ryu- Uechi - Goju ) arriving from China 1890 - into 1900's

the shared kata between the 3 do not exist on Okinawa. the primary styles on Okinawa all derive From Sokon Matsumura and he did not know, practice or teach these kata.

regarding the bold highlighted: Seisan, Sesan, Seishan, Hangetsu are variations of the same kata. As far as I know this Kata was practiced in all early 1900s Okinawan styles, from Shuri-Te to Naha-te. I don't know when Seishan entered the Shuri-te/Shorin-ryu/Shotokan line but read somewhere that Matsumura already taught it.

Looking at the significant differences between the Shuri-Te and Naha-Te versions it seems to have been introduced to Okinawan Karate quite a few generations earlier.

From this it seems obvious that all Okinawan styles had some cross-fertilization and/or common sources (south China).

To the underlined above - We know that Matsumura Sokon passed this Kata down but from where he learned it, there is no definitive documentation. Some speculate Ason, others Iwah and so on.

To the bold above - prior to the Japanization of the Okinawan arts there was no such thing as Shuri-te (Suidi), Tomari-te (Tumaadi) or Naha-te (Nafaadi). These towns are literally within walking distance and all apart of the capital of Naha now. This was the Japanese attempt to categorize the art to fit it into a neat little package because the concept of each teacher teaching something different was not within their cultural ideals. Historians love to say this Kata came from this village or that but in reality most of the old teachers on Okinawa will tell you that there were no lines drawn. Sesan, Seisan, Seshan or whatever your art calls this Kata was one Hsing that came from China and is one of, if not the oldest Kata. The reason for differences and which one is the original or true representation of the Kata has been debated many times here and in most every forum and Dojo around the world. Many will point to the fact that it's most well known as a Goju-Ryu Kata and that all others copied or borrowed it. This is far from the truth as Matsumura brought this Kata back from China prior to other being born. This in no way is to say that it was original to Shuri-te, just that the Kata was taught to many and had been around long before any of them.

My personal opinion is that the arts were changing as time went on and changed each time it was passed down do to individual preferences or regional preferences.

Depending on how many generations have passed the form would have changed and been altered (albeit slightly) over that time period.

Matsumura was in China some time around the 1830's.

Higaonna Kanryo went to China in the 1870's.

Kanbun Uechi went to China around the 1890's.

Gichin Funakoshi- never went to China to my knowledge so would have picked up this Kata from one of his teachers and would not be included in bringing a version of this Kata to Okinawa.

All three had different teachers but all studied in Southern China. Whether the form had changed during this time or whether each of these men put their own twist on the Kata is up for debate.

Note* - It was not uncommon for teachers to tweak a Kata to make it their own or to add to it. You have to remember that a Kata/Hsing was the art itself. So to imagine that the Kata would change as each generation learned new techniques would not be out of the question. Beyond that I've read that each town or region would have their own versions of the same style of martial art due to influences. It would not be out of the question to imagine that Matsumura may have learned the same Kata but with a different spin than Higaonna or Uechi.

This has been hotly debated in terms of White Crane, crane Kata and the differences between arts and whether they match or have anything in common with the original Southern Crane style of Quan Fa but this is for another post.

In Higaonna's case he may also have learned this Kata from Arakaki Seisho who was Tudi master in his own right and would certainly have known this Kata instead of when he traveled to China. Matsumura may have learned this from any one of his teachers as well instead of in China.

The possibilities go on and on. Having said that the versions do differ from art to art but are in their foundation the same Kata so any one of these examples would and could be plausible for the differences between them.

I have learned the Matsumura, Goju-Ryu and Shotokan versions and although different are at their core (at-least in my opinion) the same Kata.

[Chunmonchek]

Hi all.

Some of you may know from my other posts that I'm looking to move on from my current style of tang soo do.

I'm considering a number of options. One is shotokan, which basically is what tang soo do tries to plagiarise so going to shotokan should give me some hint of the truth behind TSD.

Another option is goju ryu.

I initially turned my nose up at goju ryu, on the basis that apparently that's Mr Miyagi's style, and I was annoyed when I found out, something like 30 years after The Karate Kid, that Mr Miyagi actually had no Karate. But shattered illusions aside, people tell me goju ryu is a very credible style.

What can folks tell me about it? What are some of its unique characteristics? What sets it apart from TSD or shotokan?

I have no experience in TSD, but have some training in Tae Kwon Do and Shotokan from back in the early 80's, as well as substantial experience training with Shotokan Sensei. I have over 45 years in Goju, 38 of which are in Okinawan Goju (Jundokan and Shoreikan lineage).

The biggest differences, in my experience/opinion are, off the top of my head, and in no particular order of importance:

1. TKD tends to be long range, Shotokan long to medium range, and Goju close and grappling range.

2. Power generation in Okinawan Goju is very different than TKD and Shotokan. See items 3, 4 and 5 below.

3. Focus on Goju's Sanchin/Tenshoa internal training (what many refer to as the breathing kata, but there's much more to it than that).

4. Goju has better root in its stances.

5. Being a close quarter system, Goju tends to use both hands simultaneously (squared off stance), while my TKD and Shotokan training did not.

6. Focus on Goju hand strength/articulation for tearing and gauging.

7. No emphasis on Sport Karate (at least for us).

8. Very specific training focused upon cultivating a martial body/armor.

9. Used more low-line attacks and locks.

Of course due to my experience I am highly biased toward Okinawan Goju Ryu.

That said, my above views are based upon the differences that one would experience in the first year of training (at least how we train and teach).

Caveat: there are differences (some very significant) between what we train and teach, and what others in Goju do.

PS. Don't despair, while Mr. Miyagi had no real Karate experience, at least (1) the screenwriter of the Karate Kid does...and (2) Mr. Miyagi did know the Fonz!!!