How to find a good club?

[OneKickWonder]

This used to seem obvious to me. To find a good club, you visit clubs and try a few classes and get to know the teacher(s).

But now I'm not so sure. Having spent a number of years in my latest club, my progress has stalled. It has stalled for one simple reason. We are not given enough opportunity to practice the more subtle aspects.

Worse than that, I've observed a number of things in recent times that have made me question my trust in the club. I like the teachers. I believe they are excellent martial artists and lovely people. I'm just not sure they know what i believe they need to know in order to teach us effectively and safely.

So I'm thinking of changing clubs. But how do you know, early on, if a club is worth investing years in?

[sensei8]

The old tried and true way of joining a school of the MA by visiting them is still the most effective method.

Then, there's the trusting ones gut, raised hair on one back of the neck, and goose pimples. Then there's the recommendation of family, friends, and other MAists.

I suppose you want know exactly if the switching to a new club is worth the time and effort on your part until you attend. If after having visited the new school many, many times before joining, I'd give it 100% effort for at least 3 months.

I'm just not sure they know what i believe they need to know in order to teach us effectively and safely.

Not every Black Belt can teach, nor should they ever try; either one can or one can't...there's no middle ground.

Imho!!

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Please keep us abreast of how things are going, and good luck.

[JazzKicker]

From some of your other posts expressing interest in other styles, it seems like you are already seeking a change. If you are having trust or confidence issues with your instructors as well, I can see why you'd be ready to make a move.

I don't know what your rank is in WTSDA or who your instructor is- if they're not in Region 8 I wouldn't know them anyway. If you feel your progress has stalled but you still like TSD, talk to your instructor. I'm not sure what you mean by "the more subtle aspects". The more advanced training, in my experience, happened at black belt classes and clinics. If you're not a black belt yet, that's another story.

The traditional mindset of that organization, though, means their curriculum and training methods are rigid- and short of moving away, changing schools is not an option. That is, you should consider Shotokan, BJJ, etc. as you've mentioned before.

[DWx]

If you like the teachers how about raising your concerns in a positive way? They can't change things they don't know about so let them know what you want from your training. Maybe they can get you access to further courses and training opportunities.

[JR 137]

In addition to what others have said...

The long-term is truly a leap of faith. What seems fine and good during visits, even a dozen visits isn’t truly indicative of how things will be years down the road. Unless you observe every single level of classes for a long period of time, you truly won’t know IMO. You can make a good guess and hope for the best, but that’s really about it.

Then there’s other issues too. Perhaps for the first several years they’re teaching exactly as you think they should. Then the culture changes. Maybe the CI has an epiphany and realizes he/she’s been going about it the wrong way all these years. Maybe the CI is getting tired or losing motivation. Maybe he/she is stepping back more to slowly allow a transition of new instructors who’ll replace him/her eventually. Maybe the CI will unexpectedly get sick and can’t go on.

No matter how set in his/her ways the CI may seem, things can change. All you can do is make an educated guess as to how it’ll go in the long run and train. If you over think it, you could easily suffer from “paralysis by over analysis.”

[OneKickWonder]

If you like the teachers how about raising your concerns in a positive way? They can't change things they don't know about so let them know what you want from your training. Maybe they can get you access to further courses and training opportunities.

Several people have left already. Most simply stop coming. Those that I've become friends with outside of class have taken my advice and done the courtesy of saying they've quit.

As far as I know, nobody that has expressed an intention to leave has been asked why. I myself have expressed concerns in the past. I get polite but dismissive responses.

This tells me that nothing will change.

It's a shame because I really like everyone there personally. But I can't keep going if my head is full of doubts.

[OneKickWonder]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the more subtle aspects". The more advanced training, in my experience, happened at black belt classes and clinics. If you're not a black belt yet, that's another story.

I'm not a black belt yet. In previous clubs I've been in, that didn't matter. Prior to joining TSD I only ever graded once in another style, and that was a kung fu school where they didn't traditionally have grades, but had decided to experiment with it for the benefit of us western sorts. I trained for years in wado and never graded once. Yet in these other styles, I was treat as a martial artist with ability judged by seeing what I could do rather than the belt I wore.

All that changed when I went to TSD. When I started in had no intention of ever grading. Yet now I am nearing black belt purely because, to my surprise, they actually withhold techniques from you until you reach certain grades. This concept was alien to me and I'm still not at ease with it. Especially when you see a senior Dan grade showing off a technique I learned at white belt in aikido.

I'm at an age and experience level now where I'm starting to think about teaching. I realise people will then expect me to have a black belt, so I will continue to earn it somewhere, but wherever I go next, I really can't be pestered with being limited to the most basic techniques until I get to the higher grades in whatever I do next.

[JR 137]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the more subtle aspects". The more advanced training, in my experience, happened at black belt classes and clinics. If you're not a black belt yet, that's another story.

I'm not a black belt yet. In previous clubs I've been in, that didn't matter. Prior to joining TSD I only ever graded once in another style, and that was a kung fu school where they didn't traditionally have grades, but had decided to experiment with it for the benefit of us western sorts. I trained for years in wado and never graded once. Yet in these other styles, I was treat as a martial artist with ability judged by seeing what I could do rather than the belt I wore.

All that changed when I went to TSD. When I started in had no intention of ever grading. Yet now I am nearing black belt purely because, to my surprise, they actually withhold techniques from you until you reach certain grades. This concept was alien to me and I'm still not at ease with it. Especially when you see a senior Dan grade showing off a technique I learned at white belt in aikido.

I'm at an age and experience level now where I'm starting to think about teaching. I realise people will then expect me to have a black belt, so I will continue to earn it somewhere, but wherever I go next, I really can't be pestered with being limited to the most basic techniques until I get to the higher grades in whatever I do next.

Withholding techniques is a double edged sword of sorts. It makes sense and doesn’t. If someone is capable of performing and applying said techniques, then there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be taught them.

The reason to withhold them is because the student isn’t ready for them. If there’s no foundation, the techniques are meaningless and useless. Case in point - Suparinpei is said to be Goju Ryu’s most advanced kata. If a teacher wanted to, they could teach it to a beginner student. But what would the outcome be? If they’re a good athlete, maybe a pretty looking kata? What’s the understanding going to be? Unsu is Shotokan’s most technically difficult kata. Same question.

[OneKickWonder]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the more subtle aspects". The more advanced training, in my experience, happened at black belt classes and clinics. If you're not a black belt yet, that's another story.

I'm not a black belt yet. In previous clubs I've been in, that didn't matter. Prior to joining TSD I only ever graded once in another style, and that was a kung fu school where they didn't traditionally have grades, but had decided to experiment with it for the benefit of us western sorts. I trained for years in wado and never graded once. Yet in these other styles, I was treat as a martial artist with ability judged by seeing what I could do rather than the belt I wore.

All that changed when I went to TSD. When I started in had no intention of ever grading. Yet now I am nearing black belt purely because, to my surprise, they actually withhold techniques from you until you reach certain grades. This concept was alien to me and I'm still not at ease with it. Especially when you see a senior Dan grade showing off a technique I learned at white belt in aikido.

I'm at an age and experience level now where I'm starting to think about teaching. I realise people will then expect me to have a black belt, so I will continue to earn it somewhere, but wherever I go next, I really can't be pestered with being limited to the most basic techniques until I get to the higher grades in whatever I do next.

Withholding techniques is a double edged sword of sorts. It makes sense and doesn’t. If someone is capable of performing and applying said techniques, then there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be taught them.

The reason to withhold them is because the student isn’t ready for them. If there’s no foundation, the techniques are meaningless and useless. Case in point - Suparinpei is said to be Goju Ryu’s most advanced kata. If a teacher wanted to, they could teach it to a beginner student. But what would the outcome be? If they’re a good athlete, maybe a pretty looking kata? What’s the understanding going to be? Unsu is Shotokan’s most technically difficult kata. Same question.

I totally get that, and agree 100%

But what is alien to me is the concept of judging by belt colour alone. When I started, I was humble enough to start right at the beginning. I made a conscious decision to not try to match it to my previous experience in other styles. But as time moved on, I found that basic principles taught to beginners in other styles were sometimes appearing as 'advanced techniques' in seminars and such. And I started thinking, I know this technique and the principles behind it, and yet not only am I not allowed to know it yet, but also I will still be expected to say ooh and ah at all the right moments when someone else, with a higher grade, demonstrates it.

A few times I've been selected to be the demo dummy. As I get twisted this way and that, I find myself thinking, yes I know I can get out if this, but perhaps that's because he's only going demo speed. Then other times I think, this only works if I don't know how to counter it, which I do. I once removed my arm from a lock, realised I'd undermined the instructor in front of the whole class, so quickly slide my arm back into his lock.

None of this is disrespecting my teachers. They are really good. And really nice people. But I'm not convinced I'm going to learn much more there.

[bushido_man96]

If you like the teachers how about raising your concerns in a positive way? They can't change things they don't know about so let them know what you want from your training. Maybe they can get you access to further courses and training opportunities.

This is a good approach to take. Take your concerns to them. At least that way you know that they know.

I would also mention that if you have trained over the course of several years, it can become more and more difficult to see the improvement. We all reach a point of diminishing returns, and as Martial Artists that means we force ourselves to work even harder to see just a tiny bit of improvement or change.

Anyways, food for thought. Please keep us posted as you move forward in your journey here, and what course you decide to take.