Frauds

[OneKickWonder]

Every dojo/dojang/gym has got one. Or at least will have or have had at some point.

I'm talking about frauds. People who deliberately pretend they are something they are not, in order to put others at a disadvantage and massage their own ego.

Ours is a guy who is fairly low rank, rarely turns up to class, yet suddenly appears whenever a competition is coming up. Then in sparring, he will do exceptionally well. Yet those (few in our class) that have seen other styles recognise heavy influences from other styles, and he'll bend the rules and intentionally hurt people. All while playing the innocent nice guy.

Don't get me wrong. I have absolutely no issue with people training elsewhere. In fact I think it's a good thing. I myself have changed main style a few times, and cross trained more. But the difference is, all my peers know this, because I'm honest with them.

On the other hand, someone turns up every now and then just to practice for some forthcoming glory in a competition he shouldn't be in, I just think that's low. It's like a black belt putting on a white belt and entering beginners level sparring, just so people can be amazed at the white belt with epic skills.

But how do you deal with such people?

To make matters worse, our instructors, who are blinkered by only ever having trained one style, and being generally nice people that see the best in everyone, seem to be oblivious to this.

[sensei8]

I hate thief's and liar's with a passion; don't want them near me in any shape, way, and/or form.

[Shizentai]

someone turns up every now and then just to practice for some forthcoming glory in a competition he shouldn't be in, I just think that's low. It's like a black belt putting on a white belt and entering beginners level sparring, just so people can be amazed at the white belt with epic skills.

I'm not going to lie, I've sort of been this person, although accidentally.

After having watched pro-sumo religiously for the past 6 years, tentatively for the past 15 years, and after having trained martial arts in general for 18 years... I decided to just go ahead and participate in the US sumo open this year. I had never even so much as worn a mawashi before, and I was in the bottom of the lightest weight class. Even so, I didn't lose to everyone. Both my judoka friend and I each beat people who had trained in a sumo stable for over a year, both of us never having even tried the sport before that morning. I won't lie, I wasn't even considering the other people's feelings when I went up against them. I was just focusing on what waza I could think of try, what didn't work well, and what seemed to work nicely. I was by no means a ringer. I lost more fights than I won for sure, but it wasn't a complete shut-out, and I beat someone who was a good 30% heavier than I was.

The only reason I had for not training ahead of time was that there are no sumo stables near me. Even so, it occurred to me after the fact, that maybe I should have taken into consideration the implications of my coming in and beating a beginner just starting to feel confident about herself. I hope she doesn't loose confidence.

Anyway, all I mean to say is that sometimes this kind of thing happens. If you want him to learn his place in the dojo, just have him do some randori with intermediate to high ranks. I bet he'll figure out soon enough some areas where he needs to work harder.

[singularity6]

Our school is small enough to not have any! Our instructors are not afraid to ask people to train elsewhere, if needed.

[Trailer_Ape]

Yea, fine line there.

On one hand, you have the folks who are "sand baggin". They act like they have no experience, show up every now and then, just to dominate. I get what you're talking about. Knew a boxer, who had just turned pro, that would pick up cash in AMATEUR matches. He would fake a really weird stance just so no one knew had legit skills. Not cool.

On the other hand, ya got guys that move around a lot, work stupid hours, and dig training different disciplines with different perspectives. I have really sporadic attendance, but I have sparring partners who live near my home. We drill an spar. I've been to a bunch of different schools, some for very short periods of time. What am I gonna say - "I'm really good at this stuff"? That is generally followed by catching a heel with your eye socket. Of course not, I say "yea, little here, little there". Figure it is better to be modest and then impress than to go the opposite direction.

So.... I think down playing your experience is a little normal and appropriate BUT I agree that doing for the purpose of an "upset" is unethical.

[OneKickWonder]

Yea, fine line there.

On one hand, you have the folks who are "sand baggin". They act like they have no experience, show up every now and then, just to dominate. I get what you're talking about. Knew a boxer, who had just turned pro, that would pick up cash in AMATEUR matches. He would fake a really weird stance just so no one knew had legit skills. Not cool.

On the other hand, ya got guys that move around a lot, work stupid hours, and dig training different disciplines with different perspectives. I have really sporadic attendance, but I have sparring partners who live near my home. We drill an spar. I've been to a bunch of different schools, some for very short periods of time. What am I gonna say - "I'm really good at this stuff"? That is generally followed by catching a heel with your eye socket. Of course not, I say "yea, little here, little there". Figure it is better to be modest and then impress than to go the opposite direction.

So.... I think down playing your experience is a little normal and appropriate BUT I agree that doing for the purpose of an "upset" is unethical.

Which is fine in my book. We have people who've trained elsewhere. Some seriously, some just looking around to broaden their skills. All cool. That's great in my book. Fine when being honest about it. I'm in the same situation myself.

The difference is, kind if saying 'oh I'm only whatever grade in this and this is all I know, honest', and 'I'm only whatever grade in this, but I've got some experience from elsewhere in other styles'.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Perhaps it would not be exactly accurate to call most of these people described “frauds”. That would imply dishonesty and intentional deception for selfish reasons and gain or greed. It would it be just to lend such intent to those who are just overestimating their ability through misplaced ego, or boasting to impress an audience. The two traits sometimes are found in the same person, but not always.

[Wado Heretic]

I too would consider fraud a strong word for some examples. Some times it is not the fault of the player, but rather the organiser and how they determine competition levels. I saw it on a semi-regular basis back when I was kick-boxing: two rookies who were both 0-0 but for one it was their first competition bout, but the other had a Knock-Down Karate or Boxing back-ground and had competed before. On paper, both were of the same experience level as kick-boxers, but one had experience that was a practicable factor in kick-boxing. It was not the fault of the more experienced competitors though; the organiser just saw two 0-0 kick-boxing records and matched them up for a debut.

Sand-Bagging on the other hand, though, is a deliberate act comparatively speaking. It is a failure to declare one's actual ability to compete in an easier division. It is more often seen in open-grappling competitions I find. Someone with four years of free-style wrestling experience, or a Nidan Grade in Judo, only admits to the Blue-Belt they have in Jujutsu and thus ends up in that division. In that case it is the fault of the player; they have with-held information that is important for the organiser to be able to place them in a fair bracket.

With regards to how I deal with such individuals on the dojo floor; I use a red-belt system. Basically; if new-comer declares to me they have prior experience and provide proof of it, I give them a red-belt to wear for the first 3/4 months, instead of making them wear a white belt. On the belt I place three Velcro bands. One representing the level of striking, another Wrestling, and the third grappling. What I mean by this is the level of intensity I am permitting them to do relative to the belt standards I use, for each of those three skill sets. For example; there is no point in me preventing a Tae Kwon Do player or a Boxer doing Bogu Kumite (without leg kicks) because they have the prior experience to do that. Similarly, there is no point in me making a BJJ Purple Belt drill sweeps and the Punching-Phases with white belts, when they can be rolling with my Brown/Black belts.

After those 3/4 months; I then let them challenge for an actual belt in my grading system. Some times they succeed and can do away with the Velcro; sometimes the velcro bands have to stay for a little longer, even with the new belt.

In terms of people who lie to my face, and come just to beat up on my students? I just tell them to leave, and never come back, and tell the other people in the area about them. Have got a few people black-listed from* Clubs and Gyms around here.

[sensei8]

If I've misunderstood what the OP was asking/saying, I might've stated myself incorrectly, and I respectfully apologize.

I was under the impression that the topic was somewhat about a BB, for example, in one said MA style, who had joined a totally different MA style, in which said student, who's now a white belt in said new MA style, was entering tournaments as a beginner, knowing quite well that said student was, in fact, an advanced student due to the earned BB already.

If I was correct in my first impression, then I stand by what my first post in this thread spoke about wholeheartedly, and without any ambiguity whatsoever.

[OneKickWonder]

If I've misunderstood what the OP was asking/saying, I might've stated myself incorrectly, and I respectfully apologize.

I was under the impression that the topic was somewhat about a BB, for example, in one said MA style, who had joined a totally different MA style, in which said student, who's now a white belt in said new MA style, was entering tournaments as a beginner, knowing quite well that said student was, in fact, an advanced student due to the earned BB already.

Exactly this. In the worst example I know of personally, a young man that joined us a few years ago when to his first competition after just 4 months of training. He had just been awarded his first coloured belt. At the competition he was completely dominated by a man wearing a white belt. Our student came back genuinely demoralised. He said he could have handled losing. But what upset him was that he'd not been able to do anything. He said he felt like a punch bag. A bit of investigating revealed photographic evidence of skill well beyond white belt level, so the guy was confronted by his instructor. At this point the guy admitted he'd done karate for 10 years, had a black belt in judo, and had entered competitions in kick boxing.