Thinking of migrating to BJJ / MMA

[OneKickWonder]

Hi all.

I love my current primary style of tang soo do. I also love the dear friends I've made there, who are almost like family now.

But in terms of my martial arts goals, it's not ticking all the boxes. It ticks all lot if boxes but key boxes remain unticked.

* I don't feel that much fitter and stronger than I was when I started it

* I don't feel like I'd use much of it in the unlikely event I had to ever resort to violence. Instead I think I'd just fall back to my previous instinctive skill (backed by previous training in other styles)

* There's nothing, Nada, cero, nil, zilch for the floor. If I were to have to fight, and it went to the ground, it would be built in instinctive stuff backed by the small amount of judo I did when I was 9 or 10.

To this end, I'm thinking of taking myself off to the local BJJ club where they also do MMA.

Trouble is, it's something like 25 years since I last played rough. We spar in TSD but not enough and with too many rules. And I have permanent injuries to deal with these days that mean I'm never going to perform well against someone half my age.

Any thoughts or advice regarding this planned transition?

[singularity6]

A good school should accommodate. After all, students are paying customers!

I started MA a few years ago at age 36. My shoulders are prone to dislocation, my hips were weak, and I seem to have bad luck with injuries in general. The style I study is actually quite demanding, yet my instructors are cognoscente of what I can and cannot do, and are careful of their demands with me.

[JazzKicker]

i seem to remember you were at a WTSDA school, but I don't know what rank. Certainly having friends there and feeling like you fit in counts for a lot, but whether that's enough when you feel like you are not developing in some ways is a good question.

I would say, at least get you black belt, or next dan, whatever it is. In the mean time, take a few trial sessions at the MMA place, see if you like it. Hey, it may blow your mind and you'll make up your mind quickly to quit TSD.

I may have shared this before, I got to 3rd dan in TSD, over 20 years ago. I was in shape, could do all the crazy kicks, forms, etc. After that I got into JKD and MMA- and realized I was finally learning how to fight. I had a lot of rigidity and useless stuff to unlearn.

[OneKickWonder]

I think I've made up my mind. I'm not quitting TSD. For me it is far more than a fighting school. It's like family. And as a martial art it does have a lot to offer. I hear the criticisms of some WTSDA clubs and I get that. I've seen some of the output. But in ours it's not really rigid, in fact we're actively encouraged to keep it as real as we can within the rules.

But I will also add in the BJJ at layer date. I have a bit going on at the moment, but maybe in a few weeks I'll have more spare time.

I have precisely zero interest in sport, and zero interest in violence. But I am interested in the science/mechanics of combat as defence and restraint. I was watching a video of nightclub doormen in action. Something I've seen in real life plenty of times but had kind of forgotten about. That's the kind of skill I want. Not to knock someone out. But to restrain someone who is trying to knock me or someone else out. From what I saw if the bouncers technique, it looked far more grappling like than TSD offers. I see the striking aspect of TSD as valuable as a distraction in an emergency or to buy time or create an opening. I really don't ever envisage the need to repeatedly punch and kick someone. To me that's not defence or restraint, that's just violence.

[tallgeese]

I think I've made up my mind. I'm not quitting TSD. For me it is far more than a fighting school. It's like family. And as a martial art it does have a lot to offer. I hear the criticisms of some WTSDA clubs and I get that. I've seen some of the output. But in ours it's not really rigid, in fact we're actively encouraged to keep it as real as we can within the rules.

But I will also add in the BJJ at layer date. I have a bit going on at the moment, but maybe in a few weeks I'll have more spare time.

I have precisely zero interest in sport, and zero interest in violence. But I am interested in the science/mechanics of combat as defence and restraint. I was watching a video of nightclub doormen in action. Something I've seen in real life plenty of times but had kind of forgotten about. That's the kind of skill I want. Not to knock someone out. But to restrain someone who is trying to knock me or someone else out. From what I saw if the bouncers technique, it looked far more grappling like than TSD offers. I see the striking aspect of TSD as valuable as a distraction in an emergency or to buy time or create an opening. I really don't ever envisage the need to repeatedly punch and kick someone. To me that's not defence or restraint, that's just violence.

Most BJJ places will accommodate very well. You'll enjoy it. You'll get those benefits you're talking about without getting hurt. It's a very enjoyable experience and it sounds like it'd be good for you. That said, your schedule will be the deciding factor. Give it a trial and see how it goes. Based on your goals there's every likelihood you'll end up favoring it while keep in a foot in the door in TSD rather than the other way around.

Let us know how it goes when you take a look.

[RW]

Hi all.

I love my current primary style of tang soo do. I also love the dear friends I've made there, who are almost like family now.

But in terms of my martial arts goals, it's not ticking all the boxes. It ticks all lot if boxes but key boxes remain unticked.

* I don't feel that much fitter and stronger than I was when I started it

* I don't feel like I'd use much of it in the unlikely event I had to ever resort to violence. Instead I think I'd just fall back to my previous instinctive skill (backed by previous training in other styles)

* There's nothing, Nada, cero, nil, zilch for the floor. If I were to have to fight, and it went to the ground, it would be built in instinctive stuff backed by the small amount of judo I did when I was 9 or 10.

To this end, I'm thinking of taking myself off to the local BJJ club where they also do MMA.

Trouble is, it's something like 25 years since I last played rough. We spar in TSD but not enough and with too many rules. And I have permanent injuries to deal with these days that mean I'm never going to perform well against someone half my age.

Any thoughts or advice regarding this planned transition?

What is your previous training that you fall back to?

I got zero experience with TSD, but I went through a similar thought process as you recently.

I realized my kempo practice will never prepare me for a real fight. Neither would my previous shotokan practice.

Both schools were far from McDojos, but these martial arts are just that, Martial Arts. Every hour I spend doing a horse stance, neko ashi dachi or zen kutsu dachi is an hour I am not learning boxing or MMA style footwork. Every hour I am practicing a tsuki and chambering my other hand next to my wrist is an hour I am spending NOT punching the way anyone would ever punch in a real fight. I have yet to see someone, ANYBODY use a Yodan Age Uke block or an Ude Uke block in an MMA fight: several fighters do have a traditional martial arts background, e.g. lyoto and chinzo machida, steven thompson, sage northcut, cung le, seth petruzelli, etc etc, yet none of them are using traditional blocks, ever.

Yes, we do spar in kempo, and we did spar in shotokan karate (though my shotokan school only did point sparring). Sparing is at most 1/3th of TMA training, according to the traditional triple K method: Kihon (basics), Kata (duh!), and Kumite. I also feel the ruleset makes it less realistic.

So how did I come to terms with this and decide to keep training? I'll explain it my next post

[sensei8]

If you believe that migrating to BJJ/MMA will improve your MA betterment, then I say, go for it!! One's MA journey should have the constant means to improve on ones MA betterment.

Edited June 10, 2018 by sensei8

[RW]

I realized I enjoyed karate, and I enjoy Kempo.

They're Martial Arts. Arts are about self expression, beauty, or perhaps a certain sensibility. What is an art? Architecture is an art. Literature is an art.

What's NOT an art? Something strictly scientific, perhaps much more efficient and verifiable than an art, something based on science or industrialized. Architecture is an art, but the guy building McMansions with plywood walls and adhering to county codes is not doing architecture (or art). Literature is art, but the guy writing press released and corporate communications is not doing art.

Traditional Martial arts are like achitecture, literature, etc, as opposed to the more brutally efficient and stress-tested combat sports (not arts) such as boxing (after all, it's "the sweet science"), MMA or modern Muay Thai. Those are stress tested and practiced live against a fully resisting opponent who is trying to cave your face in.

So with the whole "learn to fight" aspect, what do we have? Enjoyment. The preservation of a historical art. Beauty. Health. That horse stance that looks useless? It will give you amazingly strong outer thighs. Those chamber punches? They will teach you power. Kata? Kata is an amazing exercise, it combines cardio, memorization and a whole different way to coordinate mind and body, some might even see kata as moving meditation. The health benefits that martial arts provide are way too many to list here.

Some people play basketball or soccer. Why? Because it's fun. It may bring them some sort of benefit by helping keeping them stay healthy because they're now being active, but that's it. Some people play basketball or soccer, I do martial arts. I also have the added bonus of improving my self defense skills a little bit, but I won't delude myself into thinking I can fight somebody who fights often (e.g. somebody from a rough hood) or who trains a combat sport (e.g. boxing, MMA, and full contact muay thai).

I don't want to waste my time learning useless stuff (I am quite biased against aikido style techniques, which are sadly part of my kempo system sometimes), but I do enjoy greatly practicing katas and sparring.

Bottom line is I enjoy the "Art" aspect of my martial art, so I chose to stay with it.

[OneKickWonder]

RW, I hear what you say. But just to pick up on a couple of points.

The chambered hand is nothing to do with powerful punches. That's a lie, or at best misunderstanding, that is prevalent in TMA. It does have value in training. It teaches the hip work for one thing, but it's not for punching in combat. If you train for a while in a Chinese style, many of the truths are laid bare. Same with grossly exaggerated convoluted slow 'blocks', or bizarre open hand strikes.

The chambered hand, in Chinese styles, is where it is because it's just done something, not about to do something like we are taught in karate and it's spin offs. Blocks are not blocking anything, they are strikes or joint manipulations or a means of control.

Kata are only useless when taught as a self contained unit. Worse when done as we see so often in competition oriented schools, where they replicate a sequence of poses rather than emphasising the transition between those poses. There's some really good stuff in kata.

But I know what you mean. We can spend 10 years or more slowly learning these things, only to realise that you don't need that much knowledge in combat. You just need a small number of things that you've become really good at. And even with the really good stuff that is in TMA, do we really have to take so long to get to it? I get that it's a life journey,and that's why I think I'll stick with it to some degree. It has a lot to offer. But in terms of combat readiness for self defence, I think there are far quicker and more effective options.

[RW]

RW, I hear what you say. But just to pick up on a couple of points.

The chambered hand is nothing to do with powerful punches. That's a lie, or at best misunderstanding, that is prevalent in TMA. It does have value in training. It teaches the hip work for one thing, but it's not for punching in combat. If you train for a while in a Chinese style, many of the truths are laid bare. Same with grossly exaggerated convoluted slow 'blocks', or bizarre open hand strikes.

The chambered hand, in Chinese styles, is where it is because it's just done something, not about to do something like we are taught in karate and it's spin offs. Blocks are not blocking anything, they are strikes or joint manipulations or a means of control.

Kata are only useless when taught as a self contained unit. Worse when done as we see so often in competition oriented schools, where they replicate a sequence of poses rather than emphasising the transition between those poses. There's some really good stuff in kata.

But I know what you mean. We can spend 10 years or more slowly learning these things, only to realise that you don't need that much knowledge in combat. You just need a small number of things that you've become really good at. And even with the really good stuff that is in TMA, do we really have to take so long to get to it? I get that it's a life journey,and that's why I think I'll stick with it to some degree. It has a lot to offer. But in terms of combat readiness for self defence, I think there are far quicker and more effective options.

Absolutely!

Even the instructors are like "this is a spear hand strike!" and I was like "who in this dojo can pull of a spear hand strike in an actual fight, where the opponent is moving and trying to harm you?" Few people have the conditioning to hit with a spear hand strike and not break their fingers like twigs, and among those elite few, how can they make sure they won't hit accidentally a hard target (e.g. face or skull) rather than a soft one like the throat in the middle of a fight?