Black belts welcome at your school?

[JR 137]

Wearing a black belt in a dojo outside your organization needs a bit of context.

My CI has a good relationship with a judo teacher who’s dojo used to be next door to our dojo (they shared a wall). The judo instructor would come to our dojo and teach our students some judo stuff. My CI would go to his dojo and do the same. They’d wear their own belts. Why? They were guest instructors. This was before I joined, unfortunately. The judo teacher has moved a few hours away, but he has made trips back since. Last time was a few weeks before I joined.

My former sensei had a childhood friend who moved to Japan and earned godan in jujutsu. He came back home for several months when his father passed away so he could get his father’s affairs in order. He regularly worked out at our karate dojo and taught us jujutsu stuff while he was here. He wore his belt and gi. He was a long-term guest of sorts, and him and my sensei at the time were learning from each other. Neither one was seeking rank nor formal training from each other.

Both of the above situations (and ones like it) are perfectly acceptable reasons to wear your own belt in someone else’s dojo IMO. They’re not formal students and not looking to advance in rank. They’re exchanging information.

Then there’s the people my CI told me about over the years. One was a judo sandan who wanted to join our dojo. He was told he’d have to start out as a white belt and earn ranks like everyone else. If he learned the material at a faster pace, he’d promote faster. If not, he wouldn’t. The guy couldn’t understand, or better yet refused to accept, why his judo rank didn’t transfer to our karate dojo. He felt he earned his 3rd dan and should be allowed to wear his belt as he saw fit. My CI told him he respected his judo rank, but he hasn’t earned any rank in his dojo. The guy walked out. Numerous TKD and other karate style students also didn’t join because they thought they should be allowed to wear the belt they earned elsewhere.

 

I told my CI my previous experience when I first visited. My former teacher was a former student of his former teacher (if you can follow that one ). He didn’t doubt my former rank nor experience, it he told me “you can’t wear your old belt here, as it wasn’t earned under me nor anyone else in our organization. You’ll start at white belt, and you’ll advance through the ranks according to how well you do. I won’t hold you back and I won’t push you through. You’ll most likely promote a lot quicker than average, but it’ll be because you earned it here.” I told him “I just want to train, regardless of what belt I’m wearing. I’d rather start over and earn every belt.”

Other schools offered to let me wear my old belt. I guess in this day and age they’re afraid of losing potential students. I don’t agree with that at all, but they’ got to do what it takes to pay the bills I guess.

I liked my former sensei’s policy on students with previous experience - he’d have them wear a white belt for 3-6 months, then promote them to the rank he felt they were at. Most people accepted that rank and stayed. Some left after he granted a rank because it wasn’t the rank they wanted.

Long story short - if you’re a guest who’s not looking to be a formal student, wear your belt. If you’re looking to be a formal student, start at white belt. Most importantly, shut up and train. If you can’t train while wearing a different belt, why are you really training anyway?

To the bold, this is a student. I would enforce the wearing of the white belt as well. In total agreement with your instructor.

My question is, if you accept these students who insist on wearing belts from other schools/organizations/styles of MA, what kind of students are they actually going to turn out to be? Ones that expect their way every time? That precedent has already been set from day one. Will they cherry pick techniques rather than actually learn the techniques’ context within the art, let alone the entire art (or as much as an entire art can possibly be learned)? Wanting or better yet insisting on wearing a belt from elsewhere says a lot about the prospective student to me. And not very much of it is good, to put it mildly.

My CI had a great line in there somewhere. It went along the lines of “how ridiculous would it be for me to expect to wear my 7th dan belt and be treated as a 7th dan on my first day as a judo student? I’d be just like everyone else who stepped onto a judo mat for the first time - a white belt.” I really can’t top that line.

[LLLEARNER]

Guest is instructors coming in to share whatever they do are a different thing than a person coming in for a trial or seeking to join as a student. Within the same style or organization, where one starts under a new instructor or new dojo depends on the instructor. Most of the time an instructor will want to evaluate a student with previous experience before making a decision.

Very few martial arts practitioners will agree that dan grades are universal and apply anywhere. A dan in TKD doesn’t equal a dan in jujutsu. It should be logical and obvious. It boggles the mind that anyone would insist that it does.

Nobody would ever claim, for instance, that their degree in Litterature transfers to, or otherwise applies to Biology. If that person wanted to do anything in that field, they would have to start at the beginning.

I can pretty much everything you said common sense. But my question becomes more apparent every day, unfortunately - why is it called “common sense” when it’s just not very common? It seems common sense becomes less common everyday. Maybe it’s just me.

It is not just you.

[Spartacus Maximus]

Sometimes ego and misplaced pride make people think and act in irrational or illogical ways which are against their best interest.

[MatsuShinshii]

Wearing a black belt in a dojo outside your organization needs a bit of context.

My CI has a good relationship with a judo teacher who’s dojo used to be next door to our dojo (they shared a wall). The judo instructor would come to our dojo and teach our students some judo stuff. My CI would go to his dojo and do the same. They’d wear their own belts. Why? They were guest instructors. This was before I joined, unfortunately. The judo teacher has moved a few hours away, but he has made trips back since. Last time was a few weeks before I joined.

My former sensei had a childhood friend who moved to Japan and earned godan in jujutsu. He came back home for several months when his father passed away so he could get his father’s affairs in order. He regularly worked out at our karate dojo and taught us jujutsu stuff while he was here. He wore his belt and gi. He was a long-term guest of sorts, and him and my sensei at the time were learning from each other. Neither one was seeking rank nor formal training from each other.

Both of the above situations (and ones like it) are perfectly acceptable reasons to wear your own belt in someone else’s dojo IMO. They’re not formal students and not looking to advance in rank. They’re exchanging information.

Then there’s the people my CI told me about over the years. One was a judo sandan who wanted to join our dojo. He was told he’d have to start out as a white belt and earn ranks like everyone else. If he learned the material at a faster pace, he’d promote faster. If not, he wouldn’t. The guy couldn’t understand, or better yet refused to accept, why his judo rank didn’t transfer to our karate dojo. He felt he earned his 3rd dan and should be allowed to wear his belt as he saw fit. My CI told him he respected his judo rank, but he hasn’t earned any rank in his dojo. The guy walked out. Numerous TKD and other karate style students also didn’t join because they thought they should be allowed to wear the belt they earned elsewhere.

 

I told my CI my previous experience when I first visited. My former teacher was a former student of his former teacher (if you can follow that one ). He didn’t doubt my former rank nor experience, it he told me “you can’t wear your old belt here, as it wasn’t earned under me nor anyone else in our organization. You’ll start at white belt, and you’ll advance through the ranks according to how well you do. I won’t hold you back and I won’t push you through. You’ll most likely promote a lot quicker than average, but it’ll be because you earned it here.” I told him “I just want to train, regardless of what belt I’m wearing. I’d rather start over and earn every belt.”

Other schools offered to let me wear my old belt. I guess in this day and age they’re afraid of losing potential students. I don’t agree with that at all, but they’ got to do what it takes to pay the bills I guess.

I liked my former sensei’s policy on students with previous experience - he’d have them wear a white belt for 3-6 months, then promote them to the rank he felt they were at. Most people accepted that rank and stayed. Some left after he granted a rank because it wasn’t the rank they wanted.

Long story short - if you’re a guest who’s not looking to be a formal student, wear your belt. If you’re looking to be a formal student, start at white belt. Most importantly, shut up and train. If you can’t train while wearing a different belt, why are you really training anyway?

To the bold, this is a student. I would enforce the wearing of the white belt as well. In total agreement with your instructor.

My question is, if you accept these students who insist on wearing belts from other schools/organizations/styles of MA, what kind of students are they actually going to turn out to be? Ones that expect their way every time? That precedent has already been set from day one. Will they cherry pick techniques rather than actually learn the techniques’ context within the art, let alone the entire art (or as much as an entire art can possibly be learned)? Wanting or better yet insisting on wearing a belt from elsewhere says a lot about the prospective student to me. And not very much of it is good, to put it mildly.

My CI had a great line in there somewhere. It went along the lines of “how ridiculous would it be for me to expect to wear my 7th dan belt and be treated as a 7th dan on my first day as a judo student? I’d be just like everyone else who stepped onto a judo mat for the first time - a white belt.” I really can’t top that line.

Totally agree. Unfortunately there are those that think that because they earned it (in another style/art) they shouldn't have to go through the process again. They think they should be extended some sort of courtesy as if what they accomplished should be accepted and transfer to your art.

Many, many moons ago a 8th dan in TKD visited our school and wished to take a class. My Shinshii told him he was welcome to take a class and told him to return on a day and at a time.

He entered our Dojo in his Dobok (not sure of spelling) and was wearing his belt. I was teaching the class (Mudansha) and he noticed my grade (Sandan at the time) and realized that the students were beginner and intermediate grades.

My Shinshii, as was his way, was sitting in his office watching me and the class. The 8th Dan saw him and walked a bee line into his office and shut the door behind him. Not sure of the content of the discussion but after a minute of discussion Shinshii handed the man a white belt and pointed at the class as he muttered something. The 8th Dan stormed out of his office, threw the Obi across the floor and left.

When the class was over and it was just me and Shinshii, he told me that no matter what grade I reach never allow it to go to my head. He said that a true MA'ist always maintains a beginners mind and as such doesn't care what color belt is tied around their waste.

The next week he came into the Dojo, as if to make his point, carrying a box. He walked to the front of the class and opened it and started passing out white belts. No one knew what to make of it until Shinshii himself removed his belt and put on the white belt. He then instructed us all to do the same. We all wore white belts for a month. At the end of this period he asked us, "did wearing a different colored belt change your level of skill", "Did you feel differently"? To this he added "you make the belt not the other way around, we are all students of the art no matter what grade you wear. When you reach that place that you have nothing left to learn you can wear any belt you choose and anywhere you like, but until then your still students".

Since then I and so many others have utilized this lesson with our students and ourselves when ever grade/rank/belts/titles become whats important rather than our training.

I figure if I can remove my grade and dawn a white belt in my own art I should have no issue wearing it in any other art.

If you enter a new art under a new teacher in a new Dojo, you are a beginner. Beginners wear a white belt. No one cares what belt or title you hold in another art. I figure if you really love that belt that much and insist of wearing it, then you should do so in your own Dojo. In mine you'll wear a white belt and if you join at the right time you might see me doing the same.

I just don't get how wearing a belt (any belt) somehow diminishes you or elevates you. The belt is a representation of you. In your art it represents your a BB. In a new art the white belt represents you as well, as a beginner.

In my mind you're not much of a BB if such trivial things are so important to you.

[MatsuShinshii]

Sometimes ego and misplaced pride make people think and act in irrational or illogical ways which are against their best interest.

You're hitting the proverbial nail on the head.

[sensei8]

Wearing a black belt in a dojo outside your organization needs a bit of context.

My CI has a good relationship with a judo teacher who’s dojo used to be next door to our dojo (they shared a wall). The judo instructor would come to our dojo and teach our students some judo stuff. My CI would go to his dojo and do the same. They’d wear their own belts. Why? They were guest instructors. This was before I joined, unfortunately. The judo teacher has moved a few hours away, but he has made trips back since. Last time was a few weeks before I joined.

My former sensei had a childhood friend who moved to Japan and earned godan in jujutsu. He came back home for several months when his father passed away so he could get his father’s affairs in order. He regularly worked out at our karate dojo and taught us jujutsu stuff while he was here. He wore his belt and gi. He was a long-term guest of sorts, and him and my sensei at the time were learning from each other. Neither one was seeking rank nor formal training from each other.

Both of the above situations (and ones like it) are perfectly acceptable reasons to wear your own belt in someone else’s dojo IMO. They’re not formal students and not looking to advance in rank. They’re exchanging information.

Then there’s the people my CI told me about over the years. One was a judo sandan who wanted to join our dojo. He was told he’d have to start out as a white belt and earn ranks like everyone else. If he learned the material at a faster pace, he’d promote faster. If not, he wouldn’t. The guy couldn’t understand, or better yet refused to accept, why his judo rank didn’t transfer to our karate dojo. He felt he earned his 3rd dan and should be allowed to wear his belt as he saw fit. My CI told him he respected his judo rank, but he hasn’t earned any rank in his dojo. The guy walked out. Numerous TKD and other karate style students also didn’t join because they thought they should be allowed to wear the belt they earned elsewhere.

 

I told my CI my previous experience when I first visited. My former teacher was a former student of his former teacher (if you can follow that one ). He didn’t doubt my former rank nor experience, it he told me “you can’t wear your old belt here, as it wasn’t earned under me nor anyone else in our organization. You’ll start at white belt, and you’ll advance through the ranks according to how well you do. I won’t hold you back and I won’t push you through. You’ll most likely promote a lot quicker than average, but it’ll be because you earned it here.” I told him “I just want to train, regardless of what belt I’m wearing. I’d rather start over and earn every belt.”

Other schools offered to let me wear my old belt. I guess in this day and age they’re afraid of losing potential students. I don’t agree with that at all, but they’ got to do what it takes to pay the bills I guess.

I liked my former sensei’s policy on students with previous experience - he’d have them wear a white belt for 3-6 months, then promote them to the rank he felt they were at. Most people accepted that rank and stayed. Some left after he granted a rank because it wasn’t the rank they wanted.

Long story short - if you’re a guest who’s not looking to be a formal student, wear your belt. If you’re looking to be a formal student, start at white belt. Most importantly, shut up and train. If you can’t train while wearing a different belt, why are you really training anyway?

To the bold, this is a student. I would enforce the wearing of the white belt as well. In total agreement with your instructor.

My question is, if you accept these students who insist on wearing belts from other schools/organizations/styles of MA, what kind of students are they actually going to turn out to be? Ones that expect their way every time? That precedent has already been set from day one. Will they cherry pick techniques rather than actually learn the techniques’ context within the art, let alone the entire art (or as much as an entire art can possibly be learned)? Wanting or better yet insisting on wearing a belt from elsewhere says a lot about the prospective student to me. And not very much of it is good, to put it mildly.

My CI had a great line in there somewhere. It went along the lines of “how ridiculous would it be for me to expect to wear my 7th dan belt and be treated as a 7th dan on my first day as a judo student? I’d be just like everyone else who stepped onto a judo mat for the first time - a white belt.” I really can’t top that line.

Totally agree. Unfortunately there are those that think that because they earned it (in another style/art) they shouldn't have to go through the process again. They think they should be extended some sort of courtesy as if what they accomplished should be accepted and transfer to your art.

Many, many moons ago a 8th dan in TKD visited our school and wished to take a class. My Shinshii told him he was welcome to take a class and told him to return on a day and at a time.

 

He entered our Dojo in his Dobok (not sure of spelling) and was wearing his belt. I was teaching the class (Mudansha) and he noticed my grade (Sandan at the time) and realized that the students were beginner and intermediate grades.

 

My Shinshii, as was his way, was sitting in his office watching me and the class. The 8th Dan saw him and walked a bee line into his office and shut the door behind him. Not sure of the content of the discussion but after a minute of discussion Shinshii handed the man a white belt and pointed at the class as he muttered something. The 8th Dan stormed out of his office, threw the Obi across the floor and left.

 

When the class was over and it was just me and Shinshii, he told me that no matter what grade I reach never allow it to go to my head. He said that a true MA'ist always maintains a beginners mind and as such doesn't care what color belt is tied around their waste.

 

The next week he came into the Dojo, as if to make his point, carrying a box. He walked to the front of the class and opened it and started passing out white belts. No one knew what to make of it until Shinshii himself removed his belt and put on the white belt. He then instructed us all to do the same. We all wore white belts for a month. At the end of this period he asked us, "did wearing a different colored belt change your level of skill", "Did you feel differently"? To this he added "you make the belt not the other way around, we are all students of the art no matter what grade you wear. When you reach that place that you have nothing left to learn you can wear any belt you choose and anywhere you like, but until then your still students".

 

Since then I and so many others have utilized this lesson with our students and ourselves when ever grade/rank/belts/titles become whats important rather than our training.

I figure if I can remove my grade and dawn a white belt in my own art I should have no issue wearing it in any other art.

If you enter a new art under a new teacher in a new Dojo, you are a beginner. Beginners wear a white belt. No one cares what belt or title you hold in another art. I figure if you really love that belt that much and insist of wearing it, then you should do so in your own Dojo. In mine you'll wear a white belt and if you join at the right time you might see me doing the same.

I just don't get how wearing a belt (any belt) somehow diminishes you or elevates you. The belt is a representation of you. In your art it represents your a BB. In a new art the white belt represents you as well, as a beginner.

In my mind you're not much of a BB if such trivial things are so important to you.

Solid post; especially the immediate bold type above!!

Rank has become apocryphally world wide because of the stature that it's been given without cause. It's [rank] nothing more than a thing; completely unimportant.

The floor judges rank unfairly because the floor doesn't see rank, but only the practitioner on the floor; one chance to make an impression, so make it a good one. If one can't make a good impression, then either get off the floor or avoid the floor.

[JR 137]

Quoted posts are getting way too long for me...

MatsuShinshii,

Seido Juku has the tradition of wearing a white belt for a period of time (several weeks) leading up to a dan test. My CI tested for 7th dan a few months before I joined. He wore his white belt while teaching. He lined up as a white belt and took several classes under assistant instructors during that time as well.

I’ve inadvertently spotted white belts in several of the yudansha at our dojo’s bags.

A lesson/lecture that always sticks out during conversations like this...

When I was promoted to 1st kyu during my first stint, my sensei’s teacher gave us a great lecture and lesson about rank. After it was all done and we sat down, he had one of us come up to the front and demonstrate a kata. He then had the student take off his new brown belt tied his own 7th dan belt on him. Everyone was puzzled, and he said “do the same kata again.” After which he said “was there any difference? Did the belt give him some magical powers?” After which he took his belt off and held it in front of saying “if I promoted you to this rank right now, what are you going to do with it? Wave it in someone’s face? Do you really think that’ll scare anyone off or save your butt when it comes time to? The rank doesn’t make you, you make the rank.”

[MatsuShinshii]

Quoted posts are getting way too long for me...

MatsuShinshii,

Seido Juku has the tradition of wearing a white belt for a period of time (several weeks) leading up to a dan test. My CI tested for 7th dan a few months before I joined. He wore his white belt while teaching. He lined up as a white belt and took several classes under assistant instructors during that time as well.

I’ve inadvertently spotted white belts in several of the yudansha at our dojo’s bags.

A lesson/lecture that always sticks out during conversations like this...

When I was promoted to 1st kyu during my first stint, my sensei’s teacher gave us a great lecture and lesson about rank. After it was all done and we sat down, he had one of us come up to the front and demonstrate a kata. He then had the student take off his new brown belt tied his own 7th dan belt on him. Everyone was puzzled, and he said “do the same kata again.” After which he said “was there any difference? Did the belt give him some magical powers?” After which he took his belt off and held it in front of saying “if I promoted you to this rank right now, what are you going to do with it? Wave it in someone’s face? Do you really think that’ll scare anyone off or save your butt when it comes time to? The rank doesn’t make you, you make the rank.”

That's pretty much it in a nut shell.

[MatsuShinshii]

To me a belt (any belt) represents hard work, years of sacrifice, knowledge and proficiency up to that point in your art's and in your school's curriculum. Outside of your own art or school it means nothing.

Outside of your school/art it represents to others, an assumption of a level of skills and knowledge.

Why an assumption? Because no two arts or schools will have the same expectations. A Shodan from one art might be equivalent to a Sankyu or a Sandan in another art. Why? because not every art, organization, association, federation, school or instructor hold the same expectations.

To walk into another school in another art and expect that your accolade given by your art/organization/school/instructor would be the same as the expectations of a completely different art/organization/school/instructor is ludicrous and arrogant.

We all want to believe that our style is better or tougher than any other out there, our teacher was the baddest, most demanding out there, etc. So it stands to reason that the grade you were given by "x" should, in our minds, translate to the same grade in "y". Right? NO!

The reality is, as humans we all have different expectations and ways of doing things. In reality an instructor will not do things exactly like his/her instructor nor will they have the same expectations or requirements. Why then would anyone think that this symbol, that only symbolizes their teachers expectations and requirements would be accepted by another teacher with their own set of requirements and expectations?

The reality is those same people that would walk into a Dojo expecting to wear their grade from a different art would be the same people that would expect to be elevated to that grade without ever having taken a single lesson. Does this sound like a the trait of a true Yudansha/Kodansha? IMHO it does not.

Would it not be expected to be tested for your actual skills and knowledge vs your perceived skills and knowledge and be placed accordingly? If not why study a different art? If you insist on being a BB even though you have never taken this art then why ever step through the Dojo doors to begin with? You're already a BB, right? Then why study another art if there is nothing to be gained by starting out at the beginning?

If I have a masters in education would I expect an employer to accept this as a substitute for a masters in engineering? Why not, you have masters degree? Would you allow a family doctor to perform heart surgery on you? Why not? He is a doctor? Same thing right?

Ludicrous expectations of the ego? IMHO absolutely!

It is my opinion that those that wish to wear a given belt or retain a given title are those that are not secure in their own abilities and need a visual aid to let others know what and who they are. If you are what you say you are, others will know it. You certainly do not need a belt to let them know. Like Sensei8 says, "proof is on the floor".

Your abilities will speak volumes without the need for visual reference. After all the reference is not for others anyway... it's for your own ego.

[sensei8]

Even those with a Master's in Education start at a entry level, and no higher until it's appropriate to do so. To assume a position that one doesn't officially possess is an act of disrespect for said position and for those who've truly earned it.

Without the White Belt, NO OTHER BELT EXISTS, NOR SHOULD IT!! Wearing the White Belt carries the same respect as a Black Belt because they each have its own value; none less valued than another.

Do you treat the White Belt differently than the Black Belt?? If so, then honor has been swept aside for status.

Imho!!