Will the Olympics prompt WKF to be kumite oriented?

[OneKickWonder]

With regards to kata / forms vs sparring, the relative value of each depends how they are taught, and the mindset of the student.

If sparring teaches you that real fights always begin with exactly two people facing each other already in a fighting stance, and always ends with one person have landed a couple of light taps on the other, then it is utterly useless for self defence. Whereas forms, when trained properly, train you how to move and improvise.

Conversely, if sparring allows a broad range of techniques and is extremely physical, while kata is performed as a serious of poses with no substance, then sparring suddenly becomes more relevant.

This.

Also, even something seemingly unrelated like running laps around the Dojo can help with self-defense if taught correctly and with the right mindset... because self-defense is also a mental and spiritual question. The benefit of karate versus street fighting or whatever is karate emphasizes mental clarity and spiritual toughness... I think people tend to forget this.

Not to mention, in the case of running laps around the Dojo, that also teaches you to just book it out of there if you're facing a bigger guy. I adhere to the teaching that I'm not learning karate to fight, I'm learning karate so that I don't have to.

Running also prepares you for the part of self defence that should come before, or as soon as possible after, physical engagement begins. That is, extracting yourself as quickly as possible from the dangerous situation. I.e. legging it.

Fighting is always dangerous. There are no winners. Only differing degrees of loss. If a fight begins, you have already lost. Whether that's skin off knuckles, or your life, or less tangible things like your reputation at work, or your liberty if a court decides you went too far. Best avoid it. Of course we can train for the worst case. But we should always be seeking to avoid physics confrontation, and getting out of there asap if it happens.

[Prototype]

WTF TKD, now called WT, is a style, like ITF is a style. The Kukkiwon is not a style, although WTF/WT is sometimes referred to as "Kukki TKD."

Honestly, I could see the Olympics holding both form and kumite competitions, and perhaps the opportunity to compete in an "overall" category, as well.

No it is not. You do not recieve any WTF or WT certificates in the gradings. It is the Kukkiwon. You do receive ITF certificates, however. So that's why ITF is both a style and organisation(s) and the WTF is NOT.

[wayneshin]

The Olympic program includes kata. A more relevant question would be whether the Incluson of karate in the Olympics will lead to some WKF based schools to become more sport focused. I have no doubt the answer is Yes.

[Prototype]

The Olympic program includes kata. A more relevant question would be whether the Incluson of karate in the Olympics will lead to some WKF based schools to become more sport focused. I have no doubt the answer is Yes.

Karate is primarily kata and kumite training anyway, so what would be the difference?

[mushybees]

Karate is primarily kata and kumite training anyway, so what would be the difference?

There's a huge difference between kumite and kata to develop martially applicable attributes and the same for point scoring.

I train karate with seriousness as a budo, not a sport. I train with the intention of learning life saving skills, not for shiny baubles.

[singularity6]

Karate is primarily kata and kumite training anyway, so what would be the difference?

There's a huge difference between kumite and kata to develop martially applicable attributes and the same for point scoring.

I train karate with seriousness as a budo, not a sport. I train with the intention of learning life saving skills, not for shiny baubles.

My TKD school is the same, and I think it's great!

[Wado Heretic]

WTF Style or WT-TKD is a well known colloquialism for the Tae Kwon Do as propagated by the Kukkikwon, and by extension is the style seen in WT sanctioned competitions, and is taught in WT affiliated schools. Any discussion about there being a WTF Style or not is thus an argument of semantics, and essentially pedantry. The main point is that WT and the WKF are very dissimilar organisations because the WKF has no relationship to any style specific body which dictates the "style".

I shall put it this way. If you go to a World Tae Kwon Do School, then you are going to be taught according to the syllabus established by the Kukkikwon. The Kukkikwon which is well known as the World Tae Kwon Do Academy for that very reason. Your sparring will be the same as seen in the Olympic Sport, and your forms will be practised according to what is also expected in WT forms competition. In contrast, if you go to a World Karate Federation affiliated school you could be training in Gōjū-ryū, Shōtōkan-ryū, Shito-ryū, or Wadō-ryū, or any number of related schools. The kumite will be practised according to the traditions of the school, and the goal of the instructor. Not all WKF affiliated schools practice sundome kumite according to WKF regulations. All schools practice different kata, and different core kata, and a number of which would have been illegal in WKF kata competition until very recently. Not all schools adjust, and practice their kata, with success in WKF kata competition in mind. As such, the WKF succeeding in getting Competitive Kumite into the Olympics will not dramatically change WKF affiliated schools; the level of autonomy is significantly greater.

Will the inclusion in the Olympics lead to more grass roots participation?As mentioned prior, I suspect that yes, it inevitably will. Will it fundamentally change karate? It will hopefully improve the quality of competition. However, all karateka react to the trends that are prevalent to them. People fighting for points is outside the radar of those who practice for realistic self-defence, or participate in full contact. That remains true even for those schools affiliated with the WKF.

What I will say of Kata, is that it is like all training. You fight how you train, so make sure your kata training is goal orientated. If you have no goal for your kata training except "I have been told I need to do it for X rank" then it is not goal orientated. If you want it to be mnemonic device for the practice of self-defence, then have a thorough grounding in alive training methods, and make sure the kata movements are adapted to self-defence situations. If you want to win Kata competition; follow the methods of the competition winners, and practice the Kata that do well in competition. If you find kata a useful training device, but your goals are in the world of competitive fighting, look to the Kata of Ashihara or Enshin Karate, or perhaps Nippon or Shorinji Kempō. However, this is straying off topic.

[RW]

Since the Olympic entrence foe WTF/KKW Taekwondo made free sparring the nr 1 priority, one wonders naturally if WKF Karate will follow suit?

I have always been critical of Japanese Karate styles emphasis on kata over kumite, when in fact the latter is more critical for self defence. Any free sparring is better for combat readiness than kata. You at least get a feel for distancing, sharpen your reflexes, etc. But Japanese Karate training tends to put more emphasis on kata, thus highlighting the art aspect of Karate, rather than the combat element.

I'm not a big fan of tournament style point sparring when it comes to self defense applications.

I feel that when the flow of combat is broken after a point is scored the realism of the "fight" is broken. People can start using techniques oriented towards points sparring that would be terrible ideas to attempt in a real fight, such as "blitzing" .

Point sparring does have its benefits, such as teaching reaction speed, timing, distance and set ups, though.

[RW]

I wonder, what will the criteria be for participating in Olympic karate?

It could be something as extreme as only allowing shotokan black belts to participate, or something as lax as pretty much allowing anyone to participate providing they adhere to the competition rules (in other words, and this is an unrealistic example, Johnny next door learned a kata from youtube and spars with his friends at school and somehow he got really good and now he will go to the Olympics).

My guess would be that practitioners of established karate styles (e.g. shotokan, shotokai, goku ryu, kyokushin, etc) will be able to participate, and only if they have a black belt.

I wonder if people from non-karate schools that use the karate name (e.g. a "korean karate" school, a "kempo karate" school, etc) would be able to participate?

[Prototype]

WTF Style or WT-TKD is a well known colloquialism for the Tae Kwon Do as propagated by the Kukkikwon, and by extension is the style seen in WT sanctioned competitions, and is taught in WT affiliated schools. Any discussion about there being a WTF Style or not is thus an argument of semantics, and essentially pedantry. The main point is that WT and the WKF are very dissimilar organisations because the WKF has no relationship to any style specific body which dictates the "style".

I shall put it this way. If you go to a World Tae Kwon Do School, then you are going to be taught according to the syllabus established by the Kukkikwon. The Kukkikwon which is well known as the World Tae Kwon Do Academy for that very reason. Your sparring will be the same as seen in the Olympic Sport, and your forms will be practised according to what is also expected in WT forms competition. In contrast, if you go to a World Karate Federation affiliated school you could be training in Gōjū-ryū, Shōtōkan-ryū, Shito-ryū, or Wadō-ryū, or any number of related schools. The kumite will be practised according to the traditions of the school, and the goal of the instructor. Not all WKF affiliated schools practice sundome kumite according to WKF regulations. All schools practice different kata, and different core kata, and a number of which would have been illegal in WKF kata competition until very recently. Not all schools adjust, and practice their kata, with success in WKF kata competition in mind. As such, the WKF succeeding in getting Competitive Kumite into the Olympics will not dramatically change WKF affiliated schools; the level of autonomy is significantly greater.

Will the inclusion in the Olympics lead to more grass roots participation?As mentioned prior, I suspect that yes, it inevitably will. Will it fundamentally change karate? It will hopefully improve the quality of competition. However, all karateka react to the trends that are prevalent to them. People fighting for points is outside the radar of those who practice for realistic self-defence, or participate in full contact. That remains true even for those schools affiliated with the WKF.

What I will say of Kata, is that it is like all training. You fight how you train, so make sure your kata training is goal orientated. If you have no goal for your kata training except "I have been told I need to do it for X rank" then it is not goal orientated. If you want it to be mnemonic device for the practice of self-defence, then have a thorough grounding in alive training methods, and make sure the kata movements are adapted to self-defence situations. If you want to win Kata competition; follow the methods of the competition winners, and practice the Kata that do well in competition. If you find kata a useful training device, but your goals are in the world of competitive fighting, look to the Kata of Ashihara or Enshin Karate, or perhaps Nippon or Shorinji Kempō. However, this is straying off topic.

The ITF is also allowed to compete in the Olympics. WTF is not a style.