When you know the technique

[OneKickWonder]

Lots of techniques would, I expect, work well against an opponent who doesn't know what's coming.

But what if you do recognise a technique early enough to react to it?

Is it OK to be able to neutralise a technique easily because you recognise it early? Or does that highlight a weakness in the technique or its application?

To give a specific examples. Let's say a block turns into an armlock and then a takedown. The block, armlock, takedown is by no means slow. But recognising it's going on, and bit of well trained jiggling renders the armlock ineffective enabling you to escape easily. Does that mean the armlock was rubbish, or is it testament to ones training that you recognised it early enough to stop the lock being established?

[sensei8]

The MAist...the practitioner is responsible of every technique that's executed to assure, to the very best of ones ability, that said technique is effective. When said technique isn't, it's that practitioners fault.

A technique isn't a technique unless its effective, in which, it's an educated guess, at best.

Our job is to be able, and with ease, to study said opponent, in fractions of a second, and continuously, of an appending attack before its fruition. Nonetheless, most give away their intent quite easily because they don't know any better, which is to our advantage. If you know what to look for!!

Tale tell things, like stances and body language, for example, are easy to pick up, and act accordingly with cause.

However, methodologies and ideologies differ from style to style and practitioner to practitioner, and those delicate things are ushered onto the back burner.

As Ed Parker said..."He use hesitates, meditates horizontally". He might just be right on that one!!

Imho!!

Edited March 18, 2018 by sensei8

[bushido_man96]

To give a specific examples. Let's say a block turns into an armlock and then a takedown. The block, armlock, takedown is by no means slow. But recognising it's going on, and bit of well trained jiggling renders the armlock ineffective enabling you to escape easily. Does that mean the armlock was rubbish, or is it testament to ones training that you recognised it early enough to stop the lock being established?

No, its not rubbish. There is a counter for everything, and the best way to avoid getting locked up is to not get there in the first place. Its a testament to training, in my opinion. This kind of training should push a student to learn new ways to set up their techniques, so as to hide the fact that they are coming, or cause the opponent to be concerned about some other threat, perceived or not, and use it to set up the initial threat.

[Wastelander]

Every technique in the world is harder to make work on skilled opponents, and as bushido_man96 points out, there is a counter to every technique. Look at any match between top-tier fighters from any style and keep an eye on how many times a technique succeeds. For example, Anderson Silva--considered to be one of the greatest MMA fighters of all time--had a 63% accuracy rating with his strikes, according to Fight Metric. That means that for every 100 strikes he threw, he was able to actually land 63 of them. Does that mean that the other 37 strikes were bad techniques? Not at all! Chances are, they were the probably many of the same techniques that did land, but the opponent was able to read them early enough to avoid them. The same thing happens with grappling techniques, too.

[tallgeese]

To give a specific examples. Let's say a block turns into an armlock and then a takedown. The block, armlock, takedown is by no means slow. But recognising it's going on, and bit of well trained jiggling renders the armlock ineffective enabling you to escape easily. Does that mean the armlock was rubbish, or is it testament to ones training that you recognised it early enough to stop the lock being established?

No, its not rubbish. There is a counter for everything, and the best way to avoid getting locked up is to not get there in the first place. Its a testament to training, in my opinion. This kind of training should push a student to learn new ways to set up their techniques, so as to hide the fact that they are coming, or cause the opponent to be concerned about some other threat, perceived or not, and use it to set up the initial threat.

Agreed. There are no absolutes. Both competitive and road experience have shown this to be true. Sometimes is because of a skilled response by the opponent (usually in competition) and sometimes it's dumb luck (reality) and things need to flow.

The ability to flow from linked movement to movement in a organized, systematized fashion is what counters this eventuality.

[JazzKicker]

Correct, many techniques work in theory, against an untrained opponent, or against a partner who's not resisting.

A common problem with the way people are taught is they learn all kinds of techniques, but they don't practice them "live" against a resisting opponent. This is why, once you learn basics, you have to move on to combinations, lock flows, etc.

The other thing is your opponents "energy" and body type. I remember when I was learning a bunch of Hapkido techniques. I tried showing one on my Tai Chi teacher- it was like grabbing a water balloon, didn't work. Likewise my large wristed TSD teacher. Pressure points didn't work on him, either.

[OneKickWonder]

Correct, many techniques work in theory, against an untrained opponent, or against a partner who's not resisting.

A common problem with the way people are taught is they learn all kinds of techniques, but they don't practice them "live" against a resisting opponent. This is why, once you learn basics, you have to move on to combinations, lock flows, etc.

The other thing is your opponents "energy" and body type. I remember when I was learning a bunch of Hapkido techniques. I tried showing one on my Tai Chi teacher- it was like grabbing a water balloon, didn't work. Likewise my large wristed TSD teacher. Pressure points didn't work on him, either.

Exactly.

And I think a lot of martial arts teachers are doing their students a great injustice by giving them false confidence that a technique will work for them.

As an example, take something like the wrist lock and arm bar takedown that seems to pop up in many styles as a defence from a lapel grab. It works. And it can work against a fully resisting stronger opponent. But only if you add in all the subtle tweaks that are not required when there's no resistance. And even if it does start to work, it won't always go as far as the takedown. If the 'attacker' is fast enough to react early enough, subtle changes in arm position negate the lock.

In this example, I'd be worried that in a real situation, and student might spend too long trying in vain to make it work, and get their head kicked in as a result, when an equivalent victim but with no training might just panic, and react instinctively, with much more primitive moves, but that might be enough.

I and a few others in our club like to play with the techniques a bit, trying out the what ifs, trying to flow straight from a failing technique into something else. But unfortunately we don't get that much opportunity to do so, and even when we do have that opportunity, sadly many don't take it, choosing instead to go by the book to help them achieve their next grade.

[JR 137]

Even the best techniques in the world won’t work very well if you know they’re coming. It’s an odd thing in the dojo - you spar against the same people for however long. They figure you out. Things that don’t work anymore have you wondering if they’d actually work against someone who doesn’t know you. Then you start thinking if the things that do work for you will work against an opponent you don’t know.

Here’s an example...

I like to throw a combo that goes jab-cross-hook kick-back kick. When I first started at my current dojo, it worked out great. The hook kick never landed, it everyone charged in after it, and right into my back kick at their stomach. I went down the line doing that combo, landing that back kick every single time. After a little while, everyone caught on. I haven’t landed it in as long as I can remember; everyone knows the back kick is coming and just side steps it now.

This is where competition comes in IMO. You’re facing people you don’t know, and they don’t know what you’re going to throw (unless they’ve scouted you). If it consistently lands in that setting where they don’t know you, there’s a good chance it’ll work when you really need it. Not a guarantee, but at least it’s more likely than not.