Hohen Soken Hakutsuru

[MatsuShinshii]

India's Niyuddha

Lohan Quan version of sanchin kata

lots of closed hand fists here too

it is said Annan taught the kata Chinto to Sokon Matsumura

people can make up their own minds but Muay Thai is a very distinct style with some very unique strikes and attacks. to me the feel and way of moving is way to dissimilar to anything found on Okinawa. not to mention the integration of old religious rituals that would be passed on like the Wai-kru.

then there is the fact that Annan taught the kata Chinto.....Muay Thai doesnt do kata.

i am willing to change my mind if some facts were presented that are convincing.

Food for thought... there are those that dispute that the Chinese arts influenced the Okinawan arts due to it's dissimilar movements and way techniques and applications are executed. CMA are very fluid with open techniques while OMA are and are not these things. Some will tell you that is enough to prove their point. In fact there have been discussions right here on KF concerning this very thing. Bai He quan and how it does or doesn't resemble Okinawan White Crane techniques.

Muay Thai is a sport where as Muay Boran is a fighting (combat) discipline. Much like old school Jujutsu vs. Judo. Yes they share techniques but not the same concepts or technical applications of those techniques. The elbow, forearm, some fist, shin and knee strikes, low kicks, close fighting did not come from CMA so where then did they derive from? If Mok Gar was established before this time frame you would have an argument for close fighting techniques. IMHO this comes from the Saim (Thailand) influence.

I have no definitive proof nor does anyone that Siam influenced Okinawa. Conversely you have no definitive proof that it did not. However there is enough evidence that points towards this influence that it is my and others belief that it did. To each their own.

I understand your argument but understand that the Okinawan's took what they wanted and made it fit with their own art of Ti and Muto. They made it Okinawan. This means it will not look the same in terms of performance. CMA are very open in most cases and have longer range elements whereas OMA do not follow this methodology and in many cases the techniques and applications that influenced the Okinawan's no longer look or are performed the way the arts that they came from are.

The same is true of Muay Boran. You say there are no Kata in Muay Boran. Your 100% right. The thing you're missing is Annan did not teach Chinto. Chinto was created from Annan's teachings. Two separate things all together. This then neither disproves nor proves Siam's influence.

As far as closed fists go in the CMA's, I did not same that CMA's do not use closed fist techniques. I am saying that all (70% or more) of the closed fist techniques did not come from CMA's. If you read some of the documentation you will find that the open techniques where prevalent in terms of what was taught and passed down from the founders. In their own words mind you.

Again, for me and after doing extensive research I have personally come to this conclusion. If you don't, that's fine. Again to each their own.

I would however tell you that if you took the time to read and look more deeply into the art you would find the very similarities that you said were not there. JMHO.

[Hoshin]

i think discussing the history of karate might warrant its own thread at this point. to continue would be to side track the original topic even more then we have already done.