Passai Nidan

[OneKickWonder]

That's an excellent article. Thanks for sharing. I've read it and watched the clips, and will undoubtedly go through it a few more times because there's a lot to take in.

Two things really stood out for me. Firstly, that the form has evolved substantially in recent decades, from being more of a soft/internal almost tai chi like form, to a much harder and more aggressive style. If my observation is correct, then I'm inclined to lean towards the view held by some historians that out of all the possible translations of the name, the most widely accepted is possibly not the original intention.

The second thing that really jumped out at me was the shotokan bassai dai. It was clearly a natural evolution of earlier versions, and was undoubtedly the closest to what I practice as simply bassai. In fact it was almost identical. Close enough in fact that I'd bet if someone on my club were to perform the shotokan version of bassai dai in a grading instead of doing our version, if they did it well, I reckon they'd still get full marks in that section of the test. Feedback afterwards would possibly be along the lines of showing chambers more and being a bit more direct in some of the moves.

Bassai sho also stood out for me but for different reasons. I saw in that a kind of amalgam of key elements from the pyung ahn/pinnan/heian set as well as bassai dai. Almost like bassai sho is a kind of abridged version of all the forms typically taught to pre dan grade (kyu / geup ) students. We don't have bassai sho at ours, but as it looks like a mix of other bits we do have, I might learnt it for my own interests to see if it sheds more light on the other forms I have so far.

I understand that you may be more comfortable with Shotokan katas and longer stances but if you wanna add another Passai to your arsenal , I would recommend a tomari Passai from Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu. it is a real deal .

this kata is well documented.

Watch this video and the two guests from Okinawa. @ 1:46 watch Ikihara doing the tomari Passai, these people are amazing in hitting with their body not just punch and kicks. a more formal version is the one Rika Osami of Shito-ryu does.

Shorin-Ryu:

Shito-Ryu:

In tang soo do, we fully acknowledge and embrace both okinawan and Chinese influence. In that respect we have a mix of both strong rigid stances and shorter much more relaxed ones. In fact we tend to focus on the strong rigid stuff at lower grades, then 'soften' it to more shorter, relaxed, closer techniques as we move up. Our philosophy is that we train the mind via the body, while simultaneously training the body to facilitate the development of the mind. To that end the strong 'hard' stuff is earlier in the training, to develop the muscles needed to move without conscious effort. Then gradually we ficus on more fluid movement, with the ultimate goal being 'moo shim', or empty mind.

So all that said, I'm very much open to seeing how other styles do things, and where those styles are less rigid, all good as far as I'm concerned.

[singularity6]

In tang soo do, we fully acknowledge and embrace both okinawan and Chinese influence. In that respect we have a mix of both strong rigid stances and shorter much more relaxed ones. In fact we tend to focus on the strong rigid stuff at lower grades, then 'soften' it to more shorter, relaxed, closer techniques as we move up. Our philosophy is that we train the mind via the body, while simultaneously training the body to facilitate the development of the mind. To that end the strong 'hard' stuff is earlier in the training, to develop the muscles needed to move without conscious effort. Then gradually we ficus on more fluid movement, with the ultimate goal being 'moo shim', or empty mind.

So all that said, I'm very much open to seeing how other styles do things, and where those styles are less rigid, all good as far as I'm concerned.

My master instructor says our style is actually fairly close to Tang Soo Do, and I see what you described in our stances and motions as well.

[Wastelander]

If you want to get really confused, my style dropped Passai Sho, renamed Passai Dai to be Passai Sho, then added a different version of Passai and called it Passai Dai. Because of that, our Passai Sho looks like pretty much everyone else's Passai/Bassai Dai:

Our Passai Dai, which the founder of our style learned from the Tawada family, is often called Matsumura Passai, and looks a bit different:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjnBtpyfzxA

[DaveB]

In my style of tang soo do, we have a form called bassai. It's pretty much what in shotokan is called passai shodan.

I have Funakoshi's book. It lists all the kata he included when he formalised the art of karate. Passai shodan is listed in there.

But there's no passai nidan in the book. And in tang soo do, passai shodan is just called bassai.

Shodan, if my Japanese terminology is any good, means 'first skill'. So where's the second one? Is there no such kata as passai nidan? Was there ever? Other forms that only come in one part don't have a number on them. So why does passai have shodan if there was never a second part?

The pinan kata are essentially key skills from a range of the most popular karate

here is a good article on Passai kata and it is great that you look into the origin of the forms you practice in TKD/TSD.

https://www.ikigaiway.com/2014/making-sense-of-passai-an-exploration-of-origin-and-style/

That's an excellent article. Thanks for sharing. I've read it and watched the clips, and will undoubtedly go through it a few more times because there's a lot to take in.

Two things really stood out for me. Firstly, that the form has evolved substantially in recent decades, from being more of a soft/internal almost tai chi like form, to a much harder and more aggressive style. If my observation is correct, then I'm inclined to lean towards the view held by some historians that out of all the possible translations of the name, the most widely accepted is possibly not the original intention.

The second thing that really jumped out at me was the shotokan bassai dai. It was clearly a natural evolution of earlier versions, and was undoubtedly the closest to what I practice as simply bassai. In fact it was almost identical. Close enough in fact that I'd bet if someone on my club were to perform the shotokan version of bassai dai in a grading instead of doing our version, if they did it well, I reckon they'd still get full marks in that section of the test. Feedback afterwards would possibly be along the lines of showing chambers more and being a bit more direct in some of the moves.

Bassai sho also stood out for me but for different reasons. I saw in that a kind of amalgam of key elements from the pyung ahn/pinnan/heian set as well as bassai dai. Almost like bassai sho is a kind of abridged version of all the forms typically taught to pre dan grade (kyu / geup ) students. We don't have bassai sho at ours, but as it looks like a mix of other bits we do have, I might learnt it for my own interests to see if it sheds more light on the other forms I have so far.

Watching Kanazawa’s (Shotokan) performance of Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho, Bassai Dai seems a lot closer to the Pinan/Heian series than Bassai Sho does. To be honest, the Pinan/Heian series seems a bit closer to Bassai Dai than the various Kanku kata that the Pinan/Heian allegedly came from. Maybe that’s just me though. I see far more Pinan in Bassai Dai than I see in Kanku.

The Pinan kata are essentially a collection of key lessons from the big 5 kata of shotokan: Bassai Dai, Kanku Dai, Chinte, Jion and Empi.

They function as a self defence course and overview of karate skills and tactics on which to base deep study of proper kata.