Jodan Uke

[sensei8]

Where I come from, all the basic blocks - jodan uke, chudan uchi-uke, chudan soto uke, and gedan brai - are done with 2 hands. Once they were done proficiently and after a bit more experience, my former sensei taught them as using the seemingly non-blocking hand as a deflection and/or grab, and the “blocking” arm as a joint lock or strike.

There it is. Right on tract.

I agree!!

I avoided that because in the OP, said...

Leaving the whole "no such thing as blocks" argument aside.

So I steered away from that; Shindokan doesn't teach blocks, just receiving said attack.

[MatsuShinshii]

Your right Sensei8 I did say leaving that aside.

Having said that, if you ask practitioners if they would use this or others (blocks) in a real fight 50% or more will say yes due to loyalty to the art. When challenged to make them work in a real scenario 100% revert instantly to the best defense, getting out of the way.

To me if you have time to block you have time to step outside of the opponents path which is where us Okinawan guys want to be.

My Shinshii made this whole thing clear in that he explained the mechanics of attack and defense when using this and other blocks.

He had an attacker face the defender and asked them to step forward and strike (attacker) and to block (defender). He explained that the attacker has the advantage because their intent is to strike so they will not stop after the first strike. Further more they have the advantage of momentum. All of their energy is focused forward whereas the defender must focus energy upwards which causes a momentary lag in their momentum and thus the attacker is able to beat them to the punch. Worse, since your blocking arm is in the air and the other is chambered, you present a large target. Kinda like having a big neon sign that says "burger king, have it your way" strike where ever you like.

Rather than blocking (Jodan Uki [uke]) we turn this into a strike. We use the Kosa/Hikite to brush/deflect and trap the incoming weapon and at the same exact time we execute a "Jodan Uki" to the opponents throat up into their chin. This is one of few examples of how you would meet force with force and counteract that force and beat it. If the attacker's momentum is great than your's typically that force will over come the defender. However if the defender attacks a weak area of the body such as the neck, the brain stops the body and drives it back away from the danger of a crushed trachea.

Other examples are outside of the opponents path but I'm trying not to write novels this year. Call it time management, which I really need to practice.

[username19853]

Strictly used as a block, only against an attack that is coming straight down to the top of your head, like a hammer blow coming straight down. Otherwise, I like to strike with it straight up into the neck area.

Couldn’t have said it better myself! One of my favorite applications

[RW]

I don't think many people would use a block as they're practiced in forms or drills, for example in the case of age uke, you:

1) lower you hand to chest height

2) then you raise it until it's above your head

3) chamber your other hand to the side

The problem is that the defender/blocker would be using at least two movements, and he would also leave himself wide open (even if the opposite hand weren't chambered) in case the attack was a feint.

i saw a video a while ago, but I can't find it, where somebody had the theory that traditional blocks were meant to be used against weapons. For example in age uke, somebody is coming with a club, trying to hit you in the head with a downward motion. You would be receiving his hand (not the club!) with age uke.

Say somebody is trying to slash you sideways with a knife, with an outward motion: you do chudan soto uke and stop his hand before he does the full motion. Things like that.

[sensei8]

Techniques found within a Kata are figurative, and not literal, imho; an idea of many possibilities.

[MatsuShinshii]

I don't think many people would use a block as they're practiced in forms or drills, for example in the case of age uke, you:

1) lower you hand to chest height

2) then you raise it until it's above your head

3) chamber your other hand to the side

The problem is that the defender/blocker would be using at least two movements, and he would also leave himself wide open (even if the opposite hand weren't chambered) in case the attack was a feint.

i saw a video a while ago, but I can't find it, where somebody had the theory that traditional blocks were meant to be used against weapons. For example in age uke, somebody is coming with a club, trying to hit you in the head with a downward motion. You would be receiving his hand (not the club!) with age uke.

Say somebody is trying to slash you sideways with a knife, with an outward motion: you do chudan soto uke and stop his hand before he does the full motion. Things like that.

to the bold: Whoever is teaching this has never fought with a knife. Don't listen to this as you will be shredded.

[Shizentai]

Leaving the whole "no such thing as blocks" argument aside. A student asked why anyone would actually use this in a real fight.

I thought about this and for me the answer is "I wouldn't use it".

In terms of an actual block would any of you use this in a real situation? If so explain why.

Note: For you other old school traditionalists, the premise of this question is would you use it as a block (as in modern Karate's perception of the Kata) . I know some will automatically say they would use it correctly as a strike, throw, deflection, redirection, etc. Block only.

I don't mean to keep going back to English vs. Japanese, but words are such powerful things! We can argue all day about "blocks", but while the English translation of "uke" as "block" is conceptually accessible, it is not the most linguistically accurate translation. Technically "ukeru" means "to receive." "age uke" is therefore just a strategy of receiving/dealing-with a strike by raising your arm upwards. Again, it's not that we're 'modifying' the "block" it's that the concept of "block" is a mistranslation imho. but I digress...

The interesting thing to me about age uke is how versatile it is. Even by just altering the timing of the waza and nothing else, it can be shifted from force-on-force, to defecting the force, to even pulling your opponent off balance by grabbing and pulling to your hip on the recoil. By changing the length of time I have contact with my opponent's jodan attack, and the target along the arm of my uke, I can alter whether it is a strike to the arm or a push sending the shoulder out of alignment. I use plenty of age-uke permutations on a regular basis. I agree with you that I don't tend to like using age uke force-on-force against a very strong opponent while I am facing directly forward while in shizentai. However, most people don't fight facing forward in shizentai either, so I kind of feel like this is not a major loss to my practical karate tool kit.

[Spodo Komodo]

In a full-on fighting scenario I wouldn't use just a block, as several people have said above, but I have used them purely as blocks in my teaching career.

When I was teaching in a secondary school (high school?) it would have been a career-ending move to strike a student, even if they were attacking you. I have used open-handed blocks to fend off blows from fists, table-legs, cricket bats and bottles until I could either get through the door and lock it behind me or they got fed up and calmed down. A jodan uke can be useful as it disrupts the balance of the attacker if they are not particularly skilled and lean into it, allowing a valuable backward step, pushing off the blocking arm. Fortunately these days a certain amount of self-defence is allowed.

[DaveB]

The basic blocks are best used as blocks against fully committed attacks.

When the attack has full weight and intent behind it (ie not the first punch in a flurry but the killing blow) the basic blocks disrupt momentum and structure creating physical and temporal space for the counter attack but more importantly enabling control of the enemy.

This can be done both with interruption or absorption of the attack, the latter usually combining some degree of pivoting or footwork.

Age/jodan uke in particular is a great opportunity to control the opponents elbow, or can offer great openings by dropping your level while blocking.

As to the idea that if you can block you can move, I think if you consider that statement you'll realise it's a bit backwards. Hands move faster than the body. Also depending on terrain moving my be a bad idea, especially head movement that breaks your balance and leaves you vulnerable to kicks and tackles. Blocks are either an active defence strategy or a last resort for something you didn't see coming. Everything else is moving out of the way.

The trouble is that people learn to block without learning why or when they should. If your block can't disrupt the opponent nor give you control of his body then it should be body movement and at most a palm parry. You should never be in the position of blocking multiple strikes without response.

[MatsuShinshii]

The basic blocks are best used as blocks against fully committed attacks.

When the attack has full weight and intent behind it (ie not the first punch in a flurry but the killing blow) the basic blocks disrupt momentum and structure creating physical and temporal space for the counter attack but more importantly enabling control of the enemy.

This can be done both with interruption or absorption of the attack, the latter usually combining some degree of pivoting or footwork.

Age/jodan uke in particular is a great opportunity to control the opponents elbow, or can offer great openings by dropping your level while blocking.

As to the idea that if you can block you can move, I think if you consider that statement you'll realise it's a bit backwards. Hands move faster than the body. Also depending on terrain moving my be a bad idea, especially head movement that breaks your balance and leaves you vulnerable to kicks and tackles. Blocks are either an active defence strategy or a last resort for something you didn't see coming. Everything else is moving out of the way.

The trouble is that people learn to block without learning why or when they should. If your block can't disrupt the opponent nor give you control of his body then it should be body movement and at most a palm parry. You should never be in the position of blocking multiple strikes without response.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I personally don't use nor teach blocking in the modern sense of the word. Blocking in the modern Japanese definition is non-effective in a real fight. So we have different points of view and definitely different beliefs on the subject but it's all good.